Topic: Digital back/camera recommendation (Read 16266 times)

Dustbak · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2007, 08:56:59 am »

I keep files no longer than 6 months for my clients. If they want it for longer I charge them for it.

I don't keep the raw files of most things I shoot for clients. I only keep the JPG's of stuff I find interesting mostly.

If I would not do so, I would need to move to a bigger place for all the hard-drives I need

photoetude · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:20:02 am »

As I sad before I am currently using Kodak SLR/c with canon lenses and already have all canon lenses that I need. I am also using Photoshop for almost 5 years and I have 2 top of the line desktop computers and powerful laptop and expandable NAS (network attached storage) and full basement of DL DVD backups….
So I think I am not going to be shocked by the Digital Back file size especially after dealing with the 4x5 scans.

The only problem I have is my budget
So I am still puzzled which way to go:

1ds mark3 will do almost everything but I have concern about Jewelry photography. I’m not satisfied with Kodak(14mp 35 mm sensor) because the small Kodak sensor size the diffraction will start to affect the image as soon as at f22 and with all 4x5 movements I still have not enough DOF with 1:1 magnification.

So currently I’m making 2 or 3 exposures with the different plain of focus and then merge them in Photoshop – this is pain in rear.

So I’m wondering if with the Digital Back I can use f32 without loosing to mach quality due to diffraction because the bigger sensor size? And maybe have better response to the tilt on 4x5?
Could any body with the macro experience using Digital Back help?

Sorry am confused…

Evgeny.

photoetude · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2007, 02:32:16 pm »

John,

The client is demanding 12X9 300 dpi images with the minimum borders around the image.
They use them for pretty big prints for jewelry shows to decorate they bus. In the last show in Las Vegas they printed 60X60 poster that was viewed only from several yards.
They also use them for print ads catalogs etc...

I ‘m barely can produce that size with the Kodak at 1:1 magnification.

I will post a sample image where you can see why I need at least 30mm (more than one inch) of DOF.

The designer’s logo is stamped on the bottom of the ring chunk and should be in acceptable focus.

I actually got this account because the client was frustrated with the previous photographer as he was not able to get bottom of the ring in focus.

I will post an sample in a few hours when I get home.

Thanks,
Evgeny

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:15:12 pm »

if i am not mistaken DOF is actually less for a bigger sensor at a given aperture.

(this is why I like for portriats)

So you want the highest pixel density ie an APS chip camera may give more DOF before diffraction

Of course judicous use of movements will help acheive focus through the plane interest at wider apps

Using that argument an 11mp mulltishot back like the Eyelike Precision M11 is the best price/quality - remember that top ad guys in the workld used these about three years ago

I am confused about whether you are using the SLRc attached to a view camera or just stopped way down

I am not sure why you cant do a triple stitch with the SLRc on a viewcam (with a sliding back adapeer or movenemt on the rear standard)

This woud provide a 36mp image which equals all but the most expensive DBs

I am an SLRn man too (nikon version) having had D200 and platyed with many canons and now owning a D3 I dont think the files from any of those cameras is really better (AT BASE ISO WELL LIT) (I wouldnt go near a wedding with one!)

While we are on the subject of the D3 the live view is amazing and would create a wonderful experience for composing table top images (and a rock steady wedding camera but the res is the same as the SRLc)

5d M11 IMO

SMM

photoetude · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2007, 05:17:37 pm »

Quote

if i am not mistaken DOF is actually less for a bigger sensor at a given aperture.

(this is why I like for portriats)

So you want the highest pixel density ie an APS chip camera may give more DOF before diffraction

Of course judicous use of movements will help acheive focus through the plane interest at wider apps

Using that argument an 11mp mulltishot back like the Eyelike Precision M11 is the best price/quality - remember that top ad guys in the workld used these about three years ago

I am confused about whether you are using the SLRc attached to a view camera or just stopped way down

I am not sure why you cant do a triple stitch with the SLRc on a viewcam (with a sliding back adapeer or movenemt on the rear standard)

This woud provide a 36mp image which equals all but the most expensive DBs

I am an SLRn man too (nikon version) having had D200 and platyed with many canons and now owning a D3 I dont think the files from any of those cameras is really better (AT BASE ISO WELL LIT) (I wouldnt go near a wedding with one!)

While we are on the subject of the D3 the live view is amazing and would create a wonderful experience for composing table top images (and a rock steady wedding camera but the res is the same as the SRLc)

5d M11 IMO

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I am attaching SLR/c to the view camera. but I need to fill the frame with the subject (1:1 or more magnification) in order to produce 12x9 at 300dpi
(I am using reversed 80mm Rodenstock lens. ) at this magnification the DOF is very shallow and even at maximum front standard tilt I am not gaining any DOF…

For the last order I shot 75 items and after that I spend almost 6 days stitching merging photoshoping the hell out of it… I need to be more efficient and not to stitch or merge several exposures. But it seems like it’s not possible with my budget.

Actually SLR/c + fast primes + Metz 70 is not that bad for events.

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #25 on:** December 05, 2007, 05:33:42 pm »

Quote

Yes I am attaching SLR/c to the view camera. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont know the prices but an eyelike M11 or phase H10 (I think it was called)

This is 11mp generation multishot digiback, has the resolution of 33mp single shot digiback (multishot)

Becuase the chip is small compared to a 22/33mp the DOF is better

Even single shot, 16bit with no AA filter this still might beat all DSLR but the latest canon for quality (and even maybe that)

That said the canon will be a dodle to use but it is over budget any way??

An M11 should cost about $5000 whilch leaves you $3000 for the 5d

You will have to hunt hard for an M11 try the dealer who post here

Basically a MS Dback is THE TOOL for studio and a DSLR is THE TOOL on the move it is up to you to decide which is most impoirtant to you and your clients

I dont think a canon will diffract less than an SLRc but if you move out and then crop you will get SLRc resolution and more DOF

S

photoetude · « **Reply #26 on:** December 05, 2007, 08:39:20 pm »

[attachment=4146:attachment]

Quote

I don't think that the Eyelike (certainly excellent quality) will really do the trick. It will require a medium format system to attach to. He is only shooting Bronica, so that seems out of the question. Finding an adapter for the Eyelike to Bronica is going to be near impossible. Also fitting it to a 4x5 will require a sliding/stitching back adapter, and those run $2K easily. And I don't see how replacing a 35mm sized sensor with a 35mm sized sensor is going to help. He can already stitch. The SLR/c has the same depth of field. You are also replacing older gear with older gear. In mechanical gear, not an issue, but in digital gear, not really desirable if/when repairs need to be made.

As far as tilting the front standard, remember, it's not about racking the thing out. it's about finding the perfect angle that gets the ring closest to in full focus even when the lens is wide open. A 4x5 tilted should be able to hit virtually any tilted plane. At least 4x5's that can do up to 30 degrees which will give almost twice that in the real angle of the object.

A tough situation for the best solution. To be completely honest, have you tried long bellows, tilts/swings as needed and 4x5 film/F64. I used to shoot a few polaroids and only two frames of film for any shot and move on. Film does still work. F64 would not be the sharpest but all in focus is desired and 4x5 scales up very well. A very large display print is not needed to be 300dpi crisp as say a magazine page is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here is the typical image where I need to combine 2 or more frames with different focal plane:

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #27 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:01:36 am »

Quote

I don't think that the Eyelike (certainly excellent quality) will really do the trick. It will require a medium format system to attach to. He is only shooting Bronica, so that seems out of the question. Finding an adapter for the Eyelike to Bronica is going to be near impossible. Also fitting it to a 4x5 will require a sliding/stitching back adapter, and those run $2K easily. And I don't see how replacing a 35mm sized sensor with a 35mm sized sensor is going to help. He can already stitch. The SLR/c has the same depth of field. You are also replacing older gear with older gear. In mechanical gear, not an issue, but in digital gear, not really desirable if/when repairs need to be made.

As far as tilting the front standard, remember, it's not about racking the thing out. it's about finding the perfect angle that gets the ring closest to in full focus even when the lens is wide open. A 4x5 tilted should be able to hit virtually any tilted plane. At least 4x5's that can do up to 30 degrees which will give almost twice that in the real angle of the object.

A tough situation for the best solution. To be completely honest, have you tried long bellows, tilts/swings as needed and 4x5 film/F64. I used to shoot a few polaroids and only two frames of film for any shot and move on. Film does still work. F64 would not be the sharpest but all in focus is desired and 4x5 scales up very well. A very large display print is not needed to be 300dpi crisp as say a magazine page is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I need to anwer this in two parts..

General Theory
----------------------------------------------

If your total recording area is the 35mm chip you are filling the frame with the bellows far less racked out giving a far larger DOF than either a larger chip or a stitched image (which is a larger chip) or 54 film (a very large chip)

So for max DOF on a given aperture the highest pixel density is requred and a multishot solution gives the highest pixel density - 33mp over a 35mm chip area

A small chip also uses the sweet spot of the lens allowing for greater movements

Many digitar were also designed around theses 35 size chips- no image circle problems

So an 11mp MS is the best way of acheiving 33mp res with the highest DOF at given aperture given any technology budget

Service - I beleive that these 'high end' products are still currently serviced
------------------------------------------------
The OP

Would not need an SBA because shooting tethered (saves cash)

would not need a bronny adapter - he is using his existing 45 camera (saves cash)

may need a digitar lenss and shutter unit (uses cash)

may need a MAC (uses cash)

msy need a view camera with finer movements (uses cash)

Could consider charging more and having a bigger avaialble budget - the client wants something that is hard to do and should pay accordingly

S

mtomalty · « **Reply #28 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:33:21 am »

Quote

may need a digitar lenss and shutter unit (uses cash)

I was under the impression that digital LF lenses are optimized for apertures
in the f8-f11 range after which quality degrades rapidly.

If this could be confirmed then the depth of field requirements will not be met
without compositing images for high magnification jewelery subjects

Mark

Dustbak · « **Reply #29 on:** December 06, 2007, 04:08:05 am »

There is a Eyelike M11 currently for sale for 2800USD on Ebay (ends today). There is also a Digiflex II for sale for 1900USD. Get a Nikon 85PC and you can make 33MP (non-interpolated!) shots with tilt for max DoF for about 6.000USD

Or use the view camera but I am not sure whether that has a shutter that can handle multishot?

photoetude · « **Reply #30 on:** December 06, 2007, 09:55:11 am »

I know that everybody is busy but I’m just wondering if somebody with the Digital Back can take several macros at f11, f16, f22, and f32. just any ring that you have at home (preferably with the small diamonds) I am not looking for any artistic lighting just well exposed 12x12 300 dpi technical shoot that will show DOF and diffraction effect.
I will set you access to my ftp server to upload these files.

Thanks to you all for the help!
Evgeny

photoetude · « **Reply #31 on:** December 06, 2007, 10:35:07 am »

Quote

I will try to do that for you tomorrow. I'll shoot with a M645 AFD Aptus 22 and fill the frame as much as possible. I don't know if the two extension tubes I have will get that macro. I don't use a 120mm macro. I'll try my Aptus combo with a tilt adapter and Rodenstock 150mm lens. Not the sharpest lens on digital but can show what depth is possible with tilt and stopped down. Also try on a Canon 5D with 100 macro.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John I can’t thank you enough...

godtfred · « **Reply #32 on:** December 06, 2007, 10:58:03 am »

Quote

I was under the impression that digital LF lenses are optimized for apertures
in the f8-f11 range after which quality degrades rapidly.

If this could be confirmed then the depth of field requirements will not be met
without compositing images for high magnification jewelery subjects

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is correct, all my Schneider digitars act this way. They are better towards the 5.6 mark than towards the 16 mark (probably as much due to diffraction, but hey, it's my experience and i'll do what i want with it )

-axel

godtfred · « **Reply #33 on:** December 06, 2007, 11:16:16 am »

Quote

...They are better towards the 5.6 mark...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm quoting myself...

Here is an image of a Rose with a digitar 90 on a P45+, taken at f5.6. Image is daft, I know. As well as oversharpened, pushed, pulled and generally taken apart. But still, you guys are such a hoot, it's the least i could do

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #34 on:** December 06, 2007, 11:59:14 am »

Can you post that a bit bigger next time

---

Poeple still dont seem to be getting or acknowledging the massive DOF advantage of a smaller chip for this use

Dustback is on the money an M11 and a 85TS maybe with an extension tube will provide a better file than a p45

If high DOF is part of your definition of better

S

Dustbak · « **Reply #35 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:02:16 pm »

I will try to make a sample with my DF/CF39 or 384/85PC over the weekend.

Morgan_Moore · « **Reply #36 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:04:32 pm »

Quote

I will try to make a sample with my DF/CF39 or 384/85PC over the weekend.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

is the cropped CF39 equal to the res of the M11 in four shot ?

probably about the same (and 10X the cost)

S

Dustbak · « **Reply #37 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:07:54 pm »

Nope, the M11 provides 22MP more and non-interpolated colors (but does need 16shots to get there).

The CF39 delivers about 22MP (to save you making the little calculation here ). In 4 shots the M11 will deliver 11MP naturally. In which case the CF39 delivers 11MP more (I just notices you mentioned 4shot for the M11).

photo570 · « **Reply #38 on:** December 06, 2007, 03:11:18 pm »

Hi Evgeny,

I do very similar work to yourself,

http://www.shoot.co.nz/New_Jewellery/jewellery.html

I shoot on a Leaf CantareXY attached to a Fuji GX680III. Great combination, all bought second hand for less than 5kUS$, and that included two Cantare's, so I have a spare. I am also looking for an Eyelike M11 or M16, or a Sinar 43 or 44. If you are serious about jewllery, you need to go multi-shot.

As for diffraction the Fuji lenses are great, my standard aperture is f32 working at around 1:1 ratio and I only need to stitch multiple exposures on occasion, on the web link above only the cross in the centre needed stitching.

PM me if you want to discuss in detail.

Kind regards,
Jason Berge

photo570 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:54:12 pm »

Hi John,

thanks for the compliment on the work. I find that it depends on what the client wants, but I actually prefer not to carry focus all the way through, as it somehow to me doesn't look "right", but it can be done with the Fuji by going to f45 and using more extreme lens movements. I will be revising the jewellery page on the site in a few days, as there is new work to add that is probably more along the lines of what Evgeny is trying to do.

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.

Author Topic: Digital back/camera recommendation (Read 16266 times)