Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Human eye perception - Lightness versus color  (Read 3629 times)

JerryReed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • jerry@jerryreed.net
    • http://jerryreed.net
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« on: December 01, 2007, 11:31:14 am »

I have been told that the human eye can see small differences in hue more easily than differences in luminance.  I cannot begin to site any references to confirm or refute this understanding; does anyone here have an idea about perception and the role of luminance and hue?

Any references?

Jerry Reed
Logged

afremiotti

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
    • http://www.andreafremiotti.com, www.burnphoto.com
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2007, 01:29:29 pm »

The human eye is more sensitive to luminance, mostly contrast. But the brain places more importance on color so it is "perceived" more.

For example, think of watching sun go through a trees leaves. You can see all sorts of levels of contrast and change. If these were colors you would see more of a blur, probably just one large spot of color.

Here's a link that shows some basic anatomy and physics of the human eye. I may have something in a textbook that gives a better example.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...on/rodcone.html

Not sure how much this does with medium format though
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 01:31:30 pm by afremiotti »
Logged

Leonardo Barreto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 379
    • http://leonardobarreto.com/
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2007, 01:56:52 pm »

Interesting to see this question here because I am reading Walter Borchenko's , Capture One Advanced Application Manual and he refers to the human eye model.

According to to Mr. Borchenko, the way the human eye captures light is with rods for color and cones for density, and that this two subsystems generate parallel data outputs that are combined at the end by our mind to visualize the external world.

He continues to explain that Phase uses a similar approach generating "2 sets of information" created from the original raw data. The streams of data are kept separated -- this it the vital element -- "The black data is saved as lightness data, and the color data is saved in a similar technology to chroma and hue information as found on the LAB color model."

Each data set can be adjusted independently.

The Manual also claims that:" In addition, the Phase One model of pixel building creates superior sharpness, color and range in highlights and shadows. this result is possible through superior quantities of color and density information even in highlights and shadows. Extreme lighting conditions also succeed with surprising hight quality"

... This Application Manual is not published by Phase one, but I know that Walter Borchenko makes content for Phase One, specifically, interviewing photographers that use the system to demonstrate the advantages compared to, say, Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, so, should we consider this book as an Phase One infommercial ?

But on the other side it is interesting to see the opinion of someone that works very close to Phase One and is willing to explain in detail the differences from one system to the other.
Logged
[font=Comic Sa

JerryReed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • jerry@jerryreed.net
    • http://jerryreed.net
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2007, 05:45:28 pm »

Quote
Interesting to see this question here because I am reading Walter Borchenko's , Capture One Advanced Application Manual and he refers to the human eye model.

According to to Mr. Borchenko, the way the human eye captures light is with rods for color and cones for density, and that this two subsystems generate parallel data outputs that are combined at the end by our mind to visualize the external world.

He continues to explain that Phase uses a similar approach generating "2 sets of information" created from the original raw data. The streams of data are kept separated -- this it the vital element -- "The black data is saved as lightness data, and the color data is saved in a similar technology to chroma and hue information as found on the LAB color model."

Each data set can be adjusted independently.

The Manual also claims that:" In addition, the Phase One model of pixel building creates superior sharpness, color and range in highlights and shadows. this result is possible through superior quantities of color and density information even in highlights and shadows. Extreme lighting conditions also succeed with surprising hight quality"

Thank you for the great insights.

I am a giclée maker, who sometimes runs up against a color from the original painting, that when "soft-proofing" it can be seen that it will be out of gamut.  My first strategy is to see if output to a different canvas, it would fit within the gamut, next I switch the rendering intentions, if still no luck; I am at a crossroads 1) alter the luminance, or alter the hue.

That is the basis for my question, and I have gotten two great answers already.

I would like to alter the luminance if that were the less noticed, but I really have not worked it out by trial and error.  It is surprising how low the value of the RGB colors (using 256 level as the basis) the "out-of-gamut" starts to appear.  If you fill a rectangle with 256 of R, G or B and then put a gradient over the rectangle, use the eyedropper tool to read where the "gamut warning appears (using soft-proofing).

Painters can paint colors in values that even the best technology cannot reproduce yet.

Jerry Reed

... This Application Manual is not published by Phase one, but I know that Walter Borchenko makes content for Phase One, specifically, interviewing photographers that use the system to demonstrate the advantages compared to, say, Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, so, should we consider this book as an Phase One infommercial ?

But on the other side it is interesting to see the opinion of someone that works very close to Phase One and is willing to explain in detail the differences from one system to the other.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

cescx

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
    • http://
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2007, 06:28:47 pm »

Quote
I have been told that the human eye can see small differences in hue more easily than differences in luminance.  I cannot begin to site any references to confirm or refute this understanding; does anyone here have an idea about perception and the role of luminance and hue?

Any references?

Jerry Reed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To a wide vision of the human perception and photography, I recommend you the "Art and Photography" by Otto Stelzer. Or the last revision avaliable.
Logged
Francesc Costa

Graeme Nattress

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
    • http://www.nattress.com
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2007, 07:51:39 pm »

Most normal vision is cones only - the rods only provide for our dark vision, which is not used under normal lighting conditions. Cones sense lightness and colour.

Graeme
Logged

JerryReed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • jerry@jerryreed.net
    • http://jerryreed.net
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2007, 07:11:45 am »

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to alter a color that is not reproducible (out-of-gamut), in such a manner that it is least noticeable?  It took me a while to get to the heart of my question, sorry.

Jerry Reed
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2007, 10:55:39 am »

Quote
Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to alter a color that is not reproducible (out-of-gamut), in such a manner that it is least noticeable?  It took me a while to get to the heart of my question, sorry.

Use good output profiles and pay attention to soft proofing when trying various rendering intents.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

JerryReed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • jerry@jerryreed.net
    • http://jerryreed.net
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2007, 06:12:04 pm »

Yes, my first approach is to see if another surface will allow for the color to fit into its gamut, while soft-proofing and changing profiles of the several canvases that I use.  When none of the surfaces will allow for a color to be printed in gamut, I next switch rendering intentions.  If it is still out of gamut...what do you do next that would be less noticeable; color or luminance?  How?  Change to LAB mode?

Jerry
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Human eye perception - Lightness versus color
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2007, 06:43:38 pm »

Quote
Yes, my first approach is to see if another surface will allow for the color to fit into its gamut, while soft-proofing and changing profiles of the several canvases that I use.  When none of the surfaces will allow for a color to be printed in gamut, I next switch rendering intentions.  If it is still out of gamut...what do you do next that would be less noticeable; color or luminance?  How?  Change to LAB mode?

Jerry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If its out of gamut, its out of gamut. Load a soft proof, edit using Photoshop tools to produce a color appearance that you desire but understand, if its not in gamut, nothing is bringing back. Its now the relationship with other in gamut colors, based on the rendering intent and mapping of the profile (understanding perceptual mapping's are all different) that you have to try to manage.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".
Pages: [1]   Go Up