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Author Topic: Lens for very small interior shooting  (Read 6140 times)

geotzo

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Lens for very small interior shooting
« on: November 30, 2007, 10:23:29 am »

Hi all,
I have been asked to cover a luxury boat brochure  with all the photos they will need. My problem is that some of the boats I visited have very narrow spaces and bedrooms. My widest lens is 12mm but still nowhere near wide enough for some shots. So my question is do I go for a fish-eye or a pano-head? Would the latter work fine in such a small space? Has anyone done anything similar before? All your thoughts on this matter are very very welcome. Thank you very much,
George

Also Note: I m using Canon 5D as a main system.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 10:24:29 am by geotzo »
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Tim Gray

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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 10:54:35 am »

Don't have much of an answer, but what are you using for your 12mm?  The sigma 12-24?  thoughts?

I remember an article (onLL, I think, but can't find it with a quick search) that talked about de-fishing a fish eye lens with something like Panorama tools (?) - that might help.

As an option to a pano set up, you can use the shift in a tilt shift.  I don't know how the Canon 24mm ts's image circle translates into a field of view equivalance - ie even with full shift the stitched images may still not have a fov of wider than 12.  It has the advantage of being able to shift just the lens without moving the body, but I have a vague recollection from Outback Photo that this doesn't entirely eliminate parallax, but might be wrong.

Finally, with a pano set up you need to be able to identify the entrance pupil of the lens (and sometimes that varies with the specific focal length of the lens) and be able to rotate over that point or you'll get nasty parallax that's tough to deal with - particularly with close ups.

I guess part of the answer is in how this will be published.  De-fishing an image will stress it quite a bit.  If quality is paramount then either the ts or pano would have to be the answer.
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Hank

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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 11:03:59 am »

It probably depends on how "small" your small is.  For frame of reference, I recently was required to shoot a broadside view of a 37' gray whale skeleton from fairly close range.  I'm using a Nikon system, but it's relevant if you will read on.  Using a Nikkor 12-24mm, I couldn't get the whole skeleton into frame, much less leave a little breathing room at each end.  Switching to a Sigma 10x20mm @ 10mm, I was able to include the whole skeleton plus surprising space at each end.  Here is the result using the Sigma.  Remember, I was cropping nose and tail using my 12-24 from the same location.

My Nikon experience is relevant because the Sigma is available for Canon, too.  It didn't cost an arm and a leg (half the price of the Nikkor), but yields comparable results to the Nikkor, and perhaps better results in terms of distortion and contrast.  

Stitching is another option, and in such close quarters would be greatly abetted by a pano-head.  I find the distortion of fisheye lenses too distracting for general commercial shooting, but in large part it's a style issue.  I'd certainly confer with your client and show examples before pursuing that route.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:06:03 am by Hank »
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MarkWelsh

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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 11:16:55 am »

You might find this page useful, showing examples of going wider than 12mm:
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/fovs.html

A really good fisheye (the Leica and Zeiss ones are the best) will give such excellent corner resolution that the interpolation loss when de-fishing will not be critical: expect to net out something like an 8mm rectilinear with a reduced frame size and a proportion more like 2:1.

The only shift lens that will be useful in this regard is the Mamiya 24mm Fisheye mounted on a shift adaptor. Using a left/right shift of 7mm gives an hFOV equivalent to about 10mm after cropping and de-fishing – but lots and lots of pixels! The lens resolution is superb and PTools works fine for the correction.

Alternatively, you could pan-stitch to go the full 180° or even wider, but of course it's simply not possible to render a scene wider than about 140° without hideous geometric distortion: at close range, with a confined interior, the distortion rapidly becomes unacceptable – unless that's the look required.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:21:31 am by MarkWelsh »
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brianrpatterson

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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 11:35:14 am »

I've shot home interiors with Sigma's 10-20 and always needed some more 'image' here and there - how you can 'stitch with a superwide I gotta see!
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Rob C

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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 11:49:13 am »

Quote
Hi all,
I have been asked to cover a luxury boat brochure  with all the photos they will need. My problem is that some of the boats I visited have very narrow spaces and bedrooms. My widest lens is 12mm but still nowhere near wide enough for some shots. So my question is do I go for a fish-eye or a pano-head? Would the latter work fine in such a small space? Has anyone done anything similar before? All your thoughts on this matter are very very welcome. Thank you very much,
George

Also Note: I m using Canon 5D as a main system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Be careful what you do with a wide-angle lens on a boat: you can run into all sorts of problems, particularly if you really DO mean luxury yacht, because distortion of beds/bunks etc can do as much harm to the vendor as good. I have had some experience of this work and it is far from either simple or straightforward, possibly the worst place to work being the toilets, where lighting nicely is going to help you lose your hair.

Another thing to look out for, is that off-season or simply when laid up, a lot of parts are covered with little canvas bags to protect the metal; it is very easy to miss things like that and then be faced with problems when the job is over. I had exactly that happen to me on a Riva Superamerica many years ago in the sea opposite the Carlton hotel at Cannes. It was a calendar shoot for a lager company (Tennent´s) and the concern was to have the model, the condensation on the glass of beer and the twin peaks of the hotel in the background all well displayed. Between the hotel´s peaks and the model´s peaks, you might understand how it came to pass that I missed one of those little canvas things right in view beyond the front of the flybridge; I think it was over a spotlight or something like that. I still cringe when I see the picture; well before Photoshop...

Frankly, wide-angles are ugly lenses to use most of the time, even if they are the only solution.

Rob C

Craig Lamson

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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 12:37:55 pm »

Quote
Hi all,
I have been asked to cover a luxury boat brochure  with all the photos they will need. My problem is that some of the boats I visited have very narrow spaces and bedrooms. My widest lens is 12mm but still nowhere near wide enough for some shots. So my question is do I go for a fish-eye or a pano-head? Would the latter work fine in such a small space? Has anyone done anything similar before? All your thoughts on this matter are very very welcome. Thank you very much,
George

Also Note: I m using Canon 5D as a main system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've shot quite a few marine and rv interiors, in fact its my main source of income, and quite frankly if it you can't get it with the Sigma 12-24 on a full frame Canon, its too small to shoot well.  

I've been lucky to find a very good copy of the 12-24 and I use the crap out of it.
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Hank

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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 02:21:46 pm »

Quote
I've shot home interiors with Sigma's 10-20 and always needed some more 'image' here and there - how you can 'stitch with a superwide I gotta see!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hey Bry, good to see you here.

I agree wholeheartedly on stitching a superwide!
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stever

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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 11:19:34 pm »

i've never done anything this tight, but i wouldn't be afraid of stitching if you've had some experience or are willing to spend time to get up the curve.

i'd back off from the superwide and shoot 20-24mm which may require matrix rather than a just verticals and stitching - CS3 and Elements 6 are pretty good, but you can search all kinds of stitching alternatives.

i think the simplest way to determine the nodal point is empiracally  moving the camera back and forth on a rail while swinging the camera until the image doesn't move
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 01:47:23 am »

If you can't make it with a single shot, i.e. you have to stitch some frames, consider following; however, if you can, avoid it, because it will be very laborous, probably far too laborous to be appretiated enough by the unwashed customer.

1. you need a pano-bracket, of course. I can't give you any information on that (I made one for myself), but you can find discussion of some of them on  Max Lyons'  pano forums

IIRC, Really Right Stuff (RRS) too sells such brackets to horrendeous prices, but only for certain lenses (and add the problem of focusing to that).

2. You need to measure the adjustment of the camera extremely good. Finding the entrance pupil is not difficult. If you see advice to determine the location of the nodal point, you can take it, it leads to the entrance pupil.

You can judge the position very roughly by stopping down the lens, closing the aperture and looking through it from the front. Open-close-open the aperture, and you see its location; that's the entrance pupil (you see the projected location of the aperture, not the physical location). This can be the starting position.

There are many good descriptions how to do it, so I write only what you need to be careful of:

a. It is not enough to see the adjustment through the viewfinder. The location of your eye over the viewfinder influences what you see. You have to make shots and look at them on the computer. I usually make several shots, record the locations millimeter wise and find, which one is the best; this is more productive, then making a try, looking at it, then another try, etc. I check the alignment on not de-mosaiced raw files in order to see it down to single pixel.

b. the location has to be accurate within one millimeter, but for your particular application possibly even more accurate.

c. Zooming always changes the location of entrance pupil.

d. Focusing may or may not change it, depending on the lens. I have eight lenses, only one of them does not change with focusing. These changes are negligable at the long end (basically, the adjustment all together is more vague at the long end), but with very short focal lengths this can mean one millimeter more or less (or even greater difference), which is a lot.

Consequently, you may need to locate the entrance pupil for several focusing distances (and re-adjust the camera on the bracket), or fix the distance.

Note, that normally you don't need to shoot all frames with the same focusing (contrary to the advice of many semi-practiced pano shooters),. Although you will shoot anyway from tripod, so you can stop down as much as you want to, DoF may still pose a problem if you don't refocus (but in some situations refocusing won't help anyway, I think).

e. Pay particular attention to the initial adjustment of the camera on the bracket. This depends on the bracket, but what you need to see is, that the best longitudinal adjustment does not help, if the camera is not mounted parallel to whatever it has to on the bracket, because tilting the camera leads to the change of the entrance pupil location in the longitudinal.

I am not sure if I expressed this understandably.

3. You will need a decent stitcher. Autostitch, Photoshop, Arcsoft and many others are none. Actually, only those based on Panorama Tools are "decent": PTGui, Panorama Tools Assembler (only $39), Hugin (free, but not for Windows, I think).

If you need all this only for one project, I think it does not pay to go this way; the investment (mostly your time) may be too high.
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Gabor

geotzo

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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2007, 10:54:33 am »

First of all, thank you all so much for the replies, this forum is just AAA+  
I do use the 12-24 Sigma ass mentioned, but some of the spaces my client wants to show are just so narrow. Someone mentioned toilets... man you have to see a couple of them they are nice but so small you can wash your hands while you know...  
The thing is I need to find a way. A couple of bedroom shots I figured I ll d from outside the boat and through the little window standing on a service platform  
With the toilets and a couple of other bedrooms I have an issue. I can't get enough with the 12mm there, I ll need 180degrees coverage so if I use a pano head and then stich the whole thing of a such narrow space, will it not look as if it was taken with a fisheye? If so why not use a fisheye from the very start and get over with one shot. Then what kind of fisheye should I get, any suggestions? I show the client some examples taken with fisheye and he wasn't too happy but he aggreed there's probably no other option...
Thanks again
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Rob C

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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2007, 05:49:22 am »

Quote
I've shot quite a few marine and rv interiors, in fact its my main source of income, and quite frankly if it you can't get it with the Sigma 12-24 on a full frame Canon, its too small to shoot well. 

I've been lucky to find a very good copy of the 12-24 and I use the crap out of it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157288\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nice site and nice shots! I´m happy to say that vour boat interiors do NOT show the dreaded wide-angle distortions that so often marr otherwise beautiful pictures.

On another tack completely: your shot of the Chevrolet. I had thought that my mind was wandering these recent few years, as any Chevrolet that I saw (not that many, living in Spain) had a golden angled cross as badge, whereas I remembered them as having a definite blue somewhere in that region. Thank goodness for your pic - I was right! So when did Chevrolet break with tradition and adopt the less attractive golden option?

Rob C
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 05:50:05 am by Rob C »
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Diapositivo

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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2007, 08:28:25 pm »

Maybe you could try to hire some rangefinder cameras with a very wide rectilinear lens.

A couple of suggestions:

Contax G or G2 + Carl Zeiss Hologon T* 16mm f/8;

A camera with a Leica M mount and a Voigtlaender Super Wide Heliar 15mm f/4,5 (which I think is certainly rectilinear) or a Voigtlaender Ultra Wide Heliar 12mm f/5,6 (which I am not sure whether it is rectilinear or fish-eye).

(In order to have the equivalent field of view of a 15mm on 35mm you must probably have something like a 9,3 mm on an "APS" digital reflex).

Rangefinder cameras have not just wider wide angles (because there is no mirror and no "inverted tele" optical disposition) but generally speaking higher quality than very wide angle lenses on SLR or dSLR.

Cheers
Fabrizio
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geotzo

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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2007, 06:40:30 am »

Thank you all again, we finally chose the 15mm fish eye solution, which will cover the toughest shots with my 5D. The client doesn't really mind the distortions for those shots, so that's good enough for me.
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