RPP - raw converter for mac.

[hardloaf]

I think that you've got the neutral thing down to a science. My whole reason for bringing up the white balance thing is that 8 times out of 10 I'm purposely changing the color temp in order to enhance the mood of the image. Sometimes warmer, sometimes cooler--with a cyan tint (i.e. ACR).
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Not at all - it will be much easier to control if you get more or less right WB first, set all adjustments and than go artistic with tonalities. By picking good WB you are simply setting a baseline at which your perception will be at peace with your picture, but that doesn't mean you should keep your neutrals dead on for sunset shots in the final result.

[hardloaf]

how do you determine the camera matrix to go from device RGB to CIEXYZ

I don't use matrixes for most of cameras - RPP uses built-in custom made LUT profiles made by Iliah Borg.

what method do you use for white point estimation

Same classical auto wb as Dave uses in dcraw for -a option, but with my own twist

are you using the DCRAW engine.

I don't use dcraw engine for anything but Raw formats decoding. Some other parts also have dcraw roots, but over time they changed a lot and don't have much in common any more.

[Pete JF]

Andrey,

One quick question...is it possible to rotate images within the program? I supect the answer is no because I've been looking all over for a secret portal. My verticals are horizontal.

[hardloaf]

Andrey,

One quick question...is it possible to rotate images within the program? I supect the answer is no because I've been looking all over for a secret portal. My verticals are horizontal.
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Yes, i.e. no.

This feature is on my list though and I'll add it for sure.
Surprisingly this is a very rare request. Seems like there is not that many cameras without orientation sensor.

[Pete JF]

Andrey,

I'm noticing severe halos when using the  local contrast feature, even in smaller amounts below 20, on objects with even moderately contrasting backgrounds, very significant. One needs to be able to be fine tune it in order for it to be useful

Also, the brightness slider seems to get hung up every so often. When it happens I can move it but it has no effect on the image. Is it a mode that turns it off? Can't figure that out, seems like a bug. Closing and re-opening seems to make it stop.

Also, I find that RPP works better with some images and not as well with others. I spose every processor has this issue, they are all different. I've had several images where i couldn't get any joy from ACR, and where, when opened in RPP, the joy was happening. Maybe it's me though...the "me" factor is firmly implanted in myself and to know this, you have to be me. That's a mess.
 
I have a few images that were shot on a grey day with backlighting that RPP seems to have problems with, also, a few shot on sunny days with large areas of heavy shadow contrast against yellow..has rendering yellow been an issue for you? It seems to give me problems.

The extreme ends of the histogram are hard to pick up when one should see a "tail" that  represents very small % areas like specular highlights or small %'s of very dark areas. It would be nice to be able read this type of detail at the ends of the histogram. I would prefer a more contrasty representation.

UI wise, it would great if the app was dual monitor friendly so we could drag and resize to make the tool bar reside on the right hand monitor. It would also be cool if one could work on images against a black background, while being isolated from the tool panel. My crunchy eyes have a very hard time working with white light flashing in my eyes.

"Save As" would be good too.

After spending more time with RPP, I just can't get over the speed issues. I need the immediacy or real time editing. I think the market, at this point, demands it...WYDIWYS,I (what you do is what you see, immediately). I don't mean to be overly redundant on that point but it's a huge thing. I know that you already know this.

I'm still messing with things here because I really like certain things about the overall rendering..I'm a bit bummed about the local contrast issue, it really limits when you can apply that feature.

Hope all that helps.

[hardloaf]

I'm noticing severe halos when using the  local contrast feature, even in smaller amounts below 20, on objects with even moderately contrasting backgrounds, very significant. One needs to be able to be fine tune it in order for it to be useful

I think I know what you talking about. Halo itself is part of the method, but it may became very visible when background is very dark and even slight increase in contrast push values to total 0 and we have flat black halos all around. In this case try to lift black point a little - some negative value. Try -1,-2,-3 and as soon as halo disappeared work your way back in smaller steps till it starts appearing again. F.e. you found that with BP -1 there is a halo and it's gone at -2 try -1.5 to see if it still helps. Basically you need to find the smallest value eliminating the halo. This applies only to black flat halos you see even at values below default 18.

Also, the brightness slider seems to get hung up every so often. When it happens I can move it but it has no effect on the image. Is it a mode that turns it off? Can't figure that out, seems like a bug. Closing and re-opening seems to make it stop.

Never seen anything like that. What position the slider has and what number it shows when this happens?

Also, I find that RPP works better with some images and not as well with others. I spose every processor has this issue, they are all different.

This actually shouldn't happen.

I have a few images that were shot on a grey day with backlighting that RPP seems to have problems with, also, a few shot on sunny days with large areas of heavy shadow contrast against yellow..has rendering yellow been an issue for you? It seems to give me problems.

I need Raw examples - this is the kind of problem I can't say anything about without seeing it.

The extreme ends of the histogram are hard to pick up when one should see a "tail" that  represents very small % areas like specular highlights or small %'s of very dark areas. It would be nice to be able read this type of detail at the ends of the histogram. I would prefer a more contrasty representation.

Point taken. I also noticed this  - need to 'amplify' those tiny fractions close to ground.

UI wise, it would great if the app was dual monitor friendly so we could drag and resize to make the tool bar reside on the right hand monitor. It would also be cool if one could work on images against a black background, while being isolated from the tool panel. My crunchy eyes have a very hard time working with white light flashing in my eyes.

Yes, some people already asked me about this and I have it on my to-do list.

"Save As" would be good too.

It's already there

After spending more time with RPP, I just can't get over the speed issues. I need the immediacy or real time editing. I think the market, at this point, demands it...WYDIWYS,I (what you do is what you see, immediately). I don't mean to be overly redundant on that point but it's a huge thing. I know that you already know this.

I tried pretty much every converter available on the market. Practically all of them handle real time editing on scale from 'ok' to 'good'. The problem is that all of them sacrifice quality over user experience and have to stick to deeply theoretically and practically flawed quick and dirty approach in image processing just to please customers and make interface attractive. This doesn't mean efficiency - only ease of uneducated use, plain attractiveness and false sense of control over the image. I don't mind - for 99% of all consumers this is enough, makes people happy and happy people are good people

You may have really quick and nasty 'polaroid' picture (in camera jpeg).

You may have affordable generic velvia developed and printed at Costco for few pennies (practically all Raw converters).

You may have your own lab, pick your film depending on scene and do development and printing all by yourself (nothing, you are on your own, big guys are so not interested).

Now guess where I place myself and RPP from those three

[Pete JF]

Hi Andrey,

I understand all that but there is something to be said for that immediacy. It's part of generating a creative flow when working. A lot of people feel this way.

However, I am ignorant enough, from a programming perspective, to not realize what it takes to accomplish all these things within a piece of software that strives to be excellent. Maybe it isn't possible and, perhaps, you are suggesting that it isn't possible...i can totally understand that : )

I'll try to send some examples to you..

Thanks

[hardloaf]

I understand all that but there is something to be said for that immediacy. It's part of generating a creative flow when working. A lot of people feel this way.

I'm actually trying to separate pure technical and creative stages. RPP is intentionally limited to only basic operations which cannot be done right with existing tools. The idea is to get good starting image and let your creativity unfold in some other tools, like Photoshop.

However, I am ignorant enough, from a programming perspective, to not realize what it takes to accomplish all these things within a piece of software that strives to be excellent. Maybe it isn't possible and, perhaps, you are suggesting that it isn't possible...i can totally understand that : )

This would be a big project, but it's possible for sure - modern computers are very powerful beings and f.e. Adobe or Apple could do this. In my opinion Adobe doesn't want to touch it's milking, but quickly aging cow and even thinks that some plastic surgery may help it. Apple is too superficial and disorganized to do this right - they need a mastermind for their photo related line of products who would understand photography and computers equally well.

I'll try to send some examples to you..

Thanks!

[Pete JF]

I'm actually trying to separate pure technical and creative stages. RPP is intentionally limited to only basic operations which cannot be done right with existing tools. The idea is to get good starting image and let your creativity unfold in some other tools, like Photoshop.
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Yep, you are totally correct. I confess, I want things to happen faster.

[wilburdl]

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to get a fullsized image to open up in CS2. What am I not doing?

[Pete JF]

Wilbur,

Go to the bottom of the tool bar and set the iinterpolation to AHD. There's a pull down menu below that, set it for RGB TIFF 16 bit or LAB TIFF 16 bit. Check the "open in PS box". Click Save and you should get full size tiff for your camera.

[Doyle Yoder]

Andrey,



After spending more time with RPP, I just can't get over the speed issues. I need the immediacy or real time editing. I think the market, at this point, demands it...WYDIWYS,I (what you do is what you see, immediately). I don't mean to be overly redundant on that point but it's a huge thing. I know that you already know this.



Have you guys not tried Raw Developer?

http://www.iridientdigital.com

Doyle

[wilburdl]

Andrey,
After spending more time with RPP, I just can't get over the speed issues. I need the immediacy or real time editing. I think the market, at this point, demands it...WYDIWYS,I (what you do is what you see, immediately). I don't mean to be overly redundant on that point but it's a huge thing. I know that you already know this.
Have you guys not tried Raw Developer?

http://www.iridientdigital.com

Doyle
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Thanks Pete. DYP, I agree but this is still in beta so all the input we give should go along way into improving this developer. Which seems to have a promising start IMO. We could be part of history  
Maybe the fact that this point has been iterated a number of times will convince Loaf that this is a worthwhile improvement to make.

[hardloaf]

Have you guys not tried Raw Developer?

http://www.iridientdigital.com

Doyle

I tried - if it counts.
IMHO nice fast alternative to ACR with some useful advanced features and practical interface. Unfortunately it also carries all typical dcraw problems - soft, artificial noise, wrong saturated colors and so on.