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Author Topic: MFB in architectural photography - the result  (Read 6499 times)

M_M

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MFB in architectural photography - the result
« on: November 26, 2007, 01:27:22 am »

Hello again,

As you may know from this thread a few weeks ago I did a side-by-side test of the highest MP backs available at the time. Originally, I thought I would need only one day for this test and I was wrong. One day would have been way too short. Luckily, I was given the H3D-39, Aptus 75s, eMotion 75lv and the P45+ for 4 days. Over the course of the four days, I did several side-by-side shots using a Cambo WDS with a Schneider 35mmXL lens. I was trying to select the best back for my way of working in the field of architectural photography. Most of my tests were done indoors under “difficult” mixed lighting conditions – tungsten and fluorescent. There was only one setup outdoors and in my opinion that was sufficient.

I want to thank all who responded on and off line; you were extremely generous with your time and knowledge, so once again a big thank you!

I’m apprehensive about sharing my impressions here; as I mentioned in my earlier post, these tests were done to help me select the best back for my needs and not the best back out there – which in my opinion is an impossible task in the first place, but since many of you have asked, I will share my thoughts. Please bear in mind, your needs are most likely quite different than mine, so do not base your opinion on my findings. It is imperative that you do your own tests.

First, I should mention that I had not used any of these backs prior this test and I’m happy to say that each of them has something unique to offer. Surprisingly, all of them proved to be fairly intuitive and easy to operate. I had the most difficulties with the H3D back when it was un-tethered and for some unexplained reason, I was always going the wrong way in the menu with the Sinar back. After a while, I was able to use the Hasselblad and Sinar backs without much trouble.
 
-    The Leaf back has a number of options and presets that can be a great time saver and helpful for some, but for me two of the features deserve a prize. The first is the ability to enter copyright information (this should be included with every professional capture device) and the second are movable guides  – great help for architecture and interiors.
 
-   The emotion 75 is a great solution as well. It has an internal solid-state storage and for somebody shooting untethered it is a great feature to have, but just in case you run out of space you can always resort to a CF card.
 
-   The H3D back can be operated without a tether with an optional Image Bank. I have not tested the new H3DII, but its 3-inch high-resolution screen is definitely tempting. The only problem with this setup could be the Image Bank. As good as it is and as much storage as it provides it is a real hard drive. I have no idea how fragile it might be on location and I wonder about the battery consumption. It has to power the back and self, so I imagine the battery might not last long.

-   I very much liked the simplicity of the Phase back. There are only four buttons and the back is extremely easy to understand and operate. The buttons are large enough and one can fly through the menus wearing gloves.

The feature I paid a close attention to on all the backs was the rear screen, as for the most part, I do not plan to be tethered for exterior photographs. Here the clear winner was the Phase back. I’m not sure if I’m correct, but to me both Hasselblad (H3D not II) and Sinar share the same display and in my opinion it is simply not good enough. Their screens are bright enough to be used outside, but for me it was very difficult to tell what I was looking at. I could read the menus just fine, but the image previous that you get can be compared to looking at very coarse newsprint through a magnifying glass, regardless whether you are inside or out. These screens were simply not good for me.

The Leaf screen is decent when used indoors, but working with it outside is another story. Reading the menus, changing your settings or viewing images is impossible without making or buying some sort of deep shade. It would have to be something that would not prevent the user from operating the back and in my opinion it should be supplied with the back. The Aptus features I mentioned earlier are useless when you are working outside, since you cannot see anything. Inside, one would most likely work tethered to something with a much nicer screen and an application that has a grid or guides, so it puzzles me why so much thought was put into the interface design of this back and so little into the screen usability outdoors.

The P 45+ screen on the other hand is bright enough to be used successfully outside and its resolution is pretty good as well. It would be even better if Phase could make it larger, but that is wishful thinking. As is, this back has the best screen of the bunch. There is also one other element that is unique to the Phase. As long as the screen is active, the back counts and displays your exposure time. I’m used to a stopwatch and I have to admit that I’m very accurate with it, but this was a fantastic addition, I had never thought I needed. It has quickly become something very difficult to part with. In addition, when the back is set to display a histogram, it also shows your exposure time – another very useful feature for an architectural photographer. When you are bracketing your timed exposure, this information is right in front of you.  

Just as I had thought prior my test, all the high-end backs produce files that are very similar in quality. In fact at the lowest resolution and up to 20 seconds all these backs produce beautiful images and it is very difficult to select a clear winner. When you find a winner, it is in my opinion, purely a matter of taste. The main differences between the files from these backs lie in the way each file is rendered straight out of the camera. It was difficult to compare apples to apples here as some of the files were processed in the manufacturer’s software, whereas others in ACR. For longer exposures; Phase in my opinion, has a definite edge plus it allows for exposures longer than 30 seconds.

Files from all the backs can be used with ACR or Lightroom, either straight out of the camera or they can be easily converted to DNG. Contrary to what I had thought, I could not open Leaf files in ACR right out of the camera. I’m speculating here, but maybe some information is not written to a mos file when working with a view camera or I might have been doing something wrong. I had to open them in V11 and than re-save in the .mos format to be opened in ACR. The emotion files were treated in the Brumbaer tools and exported to DNG to be opened in ACR. It has to be mentioned here, that the Brumbaer tool does wonders to the blown highlights recovering them completely – something very unique and only offered by Sinar at this time. Files from H3D 39 and the P45+ were developed in FlexColor and Phase Software respectively. The P45+ raw files can be opened in ACR straight out of the camera, but you cannot apply LCC correction, so for me this is not a helpful feature right now. However, I did notice an interesting thing about the P45+ files processed in ACR – they have more detail (pixel peeping in the shadows) than the same files processed in Capture One with noise suppression off. This was most noticeable in dark areas with texture (speaker covers). I believe, there is some noise suppression going on, even if it is turned off in C1. In addition, with sharpening turned off in C1, the file is slightly sharpened (unnecessarily in my opinion). I believe, FlexColor applies sharpening as well, but it allows the end user to apply negative sharpening, disabling it completely.

With the Schneider lens I was using and the amount of lateral and vertical shift, images from all the backs produced files with color cast. The manufacturer’s solutions easily corrected the issue. After applying the recommended correction, the files were very clean without any problems with just one exception. In the Leaf’s case the overall cast was corrected, but for some reason, I was noticing some discoloration in the corners. The top corners of the image had a white ceiling and they were not neutral – they had a definite red tone. I think there was something wrong with the back I had.

In my opinion, the least foolproof solution for correcting lens cast is built into FlexColor. You have to remember to clear the previous reference file, before applying a new one. Unless that is done (from what I saw in my test), the “piling” of reference files will cause the highlights in the images turn into pure magenta. Both, the Aptus and the eMotion backs displayed centerfold, but in both cases, the Brumbaer and the Gain Adjustment Tool fixed the problem 100% - so with the proper software, the problem becomes a non-issue.

Straight out of the camera, files from the Leaf had a very pleasing rendition with a slight warm (red) bias. Files from the eMotion were also very nice. They had what I would describe more of an Agfa look (pastel with a slight yellow bias). On the other hand, images from both the Hasselblad and Phase were very neutral on the verge of being sterile. As much as I liked the warmth of the Leaf and Sinar files, I prefer the more neutral/sterile look for architecture, as this is very easy to change in post. I’m sure that with a bit more work or maybe, if I had actually bothered to read instructions for the Leaf and Sinar software, I would have gotten files that would have been just as neutral as the files from Phase and Hasselblad.

Higher ISO performance was not as important to me, but from what I saw the P 45+ back might have had a slight edge over the competition with Hasselblad being in the last place.  I have to confirm, that the Sinar back requires less exposure at all ISO settings, compared to the other backs. The speed gain you get with this back might be as much as a stop, but I’m not sure if this gain is always the same under all lighting conditions. To be fair here, since I mentioned a slight problem with the Leaf back before, there was a problem with the Hasselblad back as well. Starting at 200ISO the files from the H3D displayed what can only be described as a centerfold issue. I understand that the Kodak chip does not have this problem, but the H3D files starting at 200ISO were split in the middle of the long side, with one half being a different shade and density than the other. Later, I found out that this might have been due to a corruption of the black calibration file. I should have deleted this file, forcing FlexColor to download a new file from the back, which could have resolved the issue.

The last thing I looked at was the software supplied or recommended by the manufacturer. Here, Capture One is a clear winner with FlexColor second, V11 third and Sinar last (not due to file quality). It is only fair to mention that I have not tried Sinar’s Capture Shop, as I was advised not to, due to superior file quality you get with the Brumbaer. I did not find Capture One to be very intuitive at first, but the software does everything one might need, including the ability to use PNG layout overlays and moiré correction. If you never work with a client looking over your shoulder expecting to see the progress on the screen, requiring you to work with a layout, you may go with something as simple and fast as the Brumbaer, otherwise Capture One is the answer with FlexColor behind it. Leaf’s V11 is a two-step process for an architectural photographer; you have to run the files through the Gain software first.

At the end my choice was not as difficult as I had thought it might be. I purchased a P45+ back from Phase due to:
- fantastic image quality,
- long exposure capability,
- great and usable screen for un-tethered exterior work,
- simplicity of the controls and the ability to work wearing gloves
- built-in timer and exposure information
- easy workflow

I would also like to use this opportunity to thank all the dealers I had a chance to talk to before placing my order, as some of them are frequent visitors / posters in this forum. Thank you again for your time and help!

When buying high-ticket items, I never care much for support, nor do I want to pay for it, for the most part. I can resolve most issues on my own, so I always go for the lowest price. I have to admit that for the first time in my life, I broke my own rule - thanks to superior care, professionalism, help and understanding I received form Mark Lawrence of Digital Transitions in New York. The time of my purchase coincided with a very stressful situation for me. I cannot say enough good things about Mark. He completely understood the situation and unlike some others, never tried to sell me anything I did not ask for. After 5 minutes on the phone with him, I knew he could be completely trusted and I was sure I would be buying the back from him. He promised that a brand new back would be delivered in 4 weeks. Last week; exactly as promised - to the day, the back was at my doorstep, followed by a phone call from Mark. When he called, I had a question that required technical help and he had a tech call me immediately – the issue was resolved on the spot. I’ve never experienced service and genuine care like this before, so the least I can do is to highly recommend Mark Lawrence and Digital Transitions. Once again, thank you Mark!!!

I hope all the above helps a bit more than it confuses.

Mariusz
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Sean H

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MFB in architectural photography - the result
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 12:51:50 pm »

Quote from: M_M,Nov 26 2007, 02:27 AM

Mariusz,

thanks for your impression and the detailed account of your experiences. This has been worth reading and your essay has many points to consider. As someone who will be entering the world of DMF photography about a year from now I found your review helpful and informative.

Before you get savaged by people upset at your choice, I just wanted to say that I like your architectural photography - the hues of blue in your skies are very pleasing. There is also something about the lines in the structures of the buildings that you have captured that also is fascinating. What system(s) were you using before purchasing the P45+ (camera + back) to take those photos on your site?

Thanks,

Sean
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Dustbak

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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 01:30:10 pm »

Mariusz,

Thank you for taking the time letting us know how you have been faring with your test.

The Leaf files were probably shot as compressed raw which cannot be read directly by ACR.


Regards,

Ray
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pixjohn

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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 01:58:07 pm »

I am interested to know what method with the P45+ you correct lens falloff? I use the Leaf gain adjuster, but hate the tethered workflow. I was hoping to see Phase develop  something in V4 software to help shot tethered.
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M_M

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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 02:20:21 pm »

Sean,

Thanks and I’m glad you find it a bit helpful, but as I mentioned earlier - nobody should base their opinion on my experience. When you drop this kind of cash for a back, you have to be sure that it works for you. The only way to make sure you are making the right choice is to test these things, preferably side-by-side. All these backs are more than capable of producing beautiful files and in my opinion; there is no bad choice. It is sometimes a matter of subtle differences that may or may not make a big difference for you.

Almost all the shots on my site (all except for 3) were shot conventionally, with a view camera – Sinar P2 and every lens made between 65mm and 300mm. I had not switched to digital before, due to the lack of adequate cameras and lenses. I wanted a camera with movement reserved only to the back and these have become available in the recent months. Also now, we have a much nicer selection of lenses.

Mariusz  


Quote from: Sean H,Nov 26 2007, 12:51 PM
Quote from: M_M,Nov 26 2007, 02:27 AM

Mariusz,

thanks for your impression and the detailed account of your experiences. This has been worth reading and your essay has many points to consider. As someone who will be entering the world of DMF photography about a year from now I found your review helpful and informative.

Before you get savaged by people upset at your choice, I just wanted to say that I like your architectural photography - the hues of blue in your skies are very pleasing. There is also something about the lines in the structures of the buildings that you have captured that also is fascinating. What system(s) were you using before purchasing the P45+ (camera + back) to take those photos on your site?

Thanks,

Sean
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M_M

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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 02:21:16 pm »

Ray – thanks for pointing it out.

Mariusz



Quote
Mariusz,

Thank you for taking the time letting us know how you have been faring with your test.

The Leaf files were probably shot as compressed raw which cannot be read directly by ACR.
Regards,

Ray
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M_M

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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 02:22:43 pm »

John,

As far as I know, there is no falloff correction in Capture One for now. For me, it is not a big deal. I like falloff (obviously to a degree) and I have never used center filters before. I think only Leaf and Sinar have a solution for it. The problem with their software is that you can apply the correction, but you can only see the result after processing the file. Every time you make a change you have to process the file, than to see a difference you have to layer the files and turn them off and on. I think it is easier to create a custom mask in Photoshop and do it visually.  

Mariusz


Quote
I am interested to know what method with the P45+ you correct lens falloff? I use the Leaf gain adjuster, but hate the tethered workflow. I was hoping to see Phase develop  something in V4 software to help shot tethered.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 03:05:50 pm »

Quote
John,

As far as I know, there is no falloff correction in Capture One for now. For me, it is not a big deal. I like falloff (obviously to a degree) and I have never used center filters before. I think only Leaf and Sinar have a solution for it. The problem with their software is that you can apply the correction, but you can only see the result after processing the file. Every time you make a change you have to process the file, than to see a difference you have to layer the files and turn them off and on. I think it is easier to create a custom mask in Photoshop and do it visually.   

Mariusz
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with brumbaer tools i convert one file with vignetting correction on and a second file with vignetting correction off and layer this two files in photoshop, if i want to play with the vignetation.
than i can blend them from 100% corrected to 0% . the naming of the files and of the white files is made in brumbaer tools automatically in a way that the files dont overwrite the previously written ones . i can select in the browser which files i like for each motif  and/or if i want to blend them in PS.
afterwards edited masks look very different than the calculated vignetting corrections which result from white files,- it was not for nothing that companies as schneider have had provided so much different center filters.
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rainer viertlböck
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M_M

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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 03:16:09 pm »

Rainer,

That is a very easy, graceful and almost too obvious way of dealing with this. You learn something every day – thanks.


Quote
with brumbaer tools i convert one file with vignetting correction on and a second file with vignetting correction off and layer this two files in photoshop, if i want to play with the vignetation.
than i can blend them from 100% corrected to 0% . the naming of the files and of the white files is made in brumbaer tools automatically in a way that the files dont overwrite the previously written ones . i can select in the browser which files i like for each motif  and/or if i want to blend them in PS.
afterwards edited masks look very different than the calculated vignetting corrections which result from white files,- it was not for nothing that companies as schneider have had provided so much different center filters.
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pixjohn

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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 03:18:08 pm »

The nice thing about Leaf in theory is the ability to shoot tethered with the lens falloff corrected. The one problem is the workflow sucks. I do not want to correct in post when I use lights. I want my clients to see a finished picture when the image is captured not have to say I can fix that in post. I honestly would switch to another brand if someone had a better software fix for tethered shooting.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 03:18:44 pm by pixjohn »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 03:22:52 pm »

Quote
The nice thing about Leaf in theory is the ability to shoot tethered with the lens falloff corrected. The one problem is the workflow sucks. I do not want to correct in post when I use lights. I want my clients to see a finished picture when the image is captured not have to say I can fix that in post. I honestly would switch to another brand if someone had a better software fix for tethered shooting.
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..... than try brumbaer tools out.
i.m.o. BT are simply not comparable regarding the workflow speed and the simplicity. i was totally bored to convert on locations every night in the hotel between one or two hours files. stephan and me were thinking a lot how to create a more "intelligent" and faster workflow.

many people compare backs for the features and for the quality, using  therefor singular files.
the workflow and how much time it may consume appears later, if one is working with the backs.
its not so much important how fast each program works converting individua files- ( although this has to be considered too, )- but more important is the file organisation and especially the integration of the lcc or white file corrections without having to sort this out for every file individual and manual. this is much more important if you use a shift system than if you use a "normal" mf camera, because in the shift system you should apply for every shot a new white calibration if good color unifrmity is desired.  than the time consumption can explode or at least it can make you some hours more busy in every assignement.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 04:48:58 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 03:23:23 pm »

Mariusz,

Have you considered shooting with a normal lens (using the best you can have) and correcting the result with some decent panorama stitcher?

You don't need to actually stitch several images together; the technique is the same (but if you get into it, you may change your mind for extreme high resolution - using a longer lens and stitching several images together you can achieve resolutions, of which you can't even dream with single shots).

For the case if you have not looked into this way yet, here are some examples:

Single shot, original

the above in rectilinear projection

stitched from three shots (two shots would have been enough) rectilinear projection, horizontal FoV 80°

stitched from 14 shots in two rows rectilinear projection, 62Mpix with an 8Mpix camera

stitched from 32 shots in three rows cylindrical projection, 152Mpix with an 8Mpix camera
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 04:33:56 pm »

Hi Panopeeper

I have looked into this and have indeed become very proficient in this skill.  But to do what you suggest for architectural work commercially it really is not viable.  

It works as your examples show admirably.  But commercially it is largely down to workflow, if you are not to spend hours behind a computer, indeed as Rainer suggests for other reasons.  A high quality shifting lens and a high resolution back will satisfy most clients and enable you to enjoy life and reply to the stuff on this forum more often!!!!

Steve



Quote
Mariusz,

Have you considered shooting with a normal lens (using the best you can have) and correcting the result with some decent panorama stitcher?

You don't need to actually stitch several images together; the technique is the same (but if you get into it, you may change your mind for extreme high resolution - using a longer lens and stitching several images together you can achieve resolutions, of which you can't even dream with single shots).

For the case if you have not looked into this way yet, here are some examples:

Single shot, original

the above in rectilinear projection

stitched from three shots (two shots would have been enough) rectilinear projection, horizontal FoV 80°

stitched from 14 shots in two rows rectilinear projection, 62Mpix with an 8Mpix camera

stitched from 32 shots in three rows cylindrical projection, 152Mpix with an 8Mpix camera
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M_M

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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 06:31:46 pm »

Rainer,

I have to chime in here, as I looked at all these applications and paid a closed attention to workflow. You are absolutely right, workflow is very important. The Brumbaer tools do an amazing job and they are lightning fast - you guys deserve a price, but it is more of a utility than an application (absolutely no disrespect here for Stephen Hess or you). It is a fantastic tool to have when you are done shooting and you do not have a client with you. You cannot use the BT with a client looking over you shoulder expecting you to incorporate a layout overlay – it is simply not possible. When the BT is implemented in a full-featured Sinar software, it will be a different story. At this point, Capture One allows you to do everything except for lens falloff, but I believe it will be also included in the new C1 v4. In both cases we are looking into the future, what I was talking about is now. No matter what you choose right now involves some sort of compromise, that is why it is so important to test with these products to find the equipment that fits one’s needs.

Mariusz  


Quote
..... than try brumbaer tools out.
i.m.o. BT are simply not comparable regarding the workflow speed and the simplicity. i was totally bored to convert on locations every night in the hotel between one or two hours files. stephan and me were thinking a lot how to create a more "intelligent" and faster workflow.

many people compare backs for the features and for the quality, using  therefor singular files.
the workflow and how much time it may consume appears later, if one is working with the backs.
its not so much important how fast each program works converting individua files- ( although this has to be considered too, )- but more important is the file organisation and especially the integration of the lcc or white file corrections without having to sort this out for every file individual and manual. this is much more important if you use a shift system than if you use a "normal" mf camera, because in the shift system you should apply for every shot a new white calibration if good color unifrmity is desired.  than the time consumption can explode or at least it can make you some hours more busy in every assignement.
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thsinar

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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 07:00:46 pm »

Mariusz,

you are basically right, but what Rainer wanted to say and emphasize is that the C1 does not allow the batch process of as many files as wanted with automatic applying of the right white shading to the right file: this makes a huge difference in the workflow.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Rainer,

I have to chime in here, as I looked at all these applications and paid a closed attention to workflow. You are absolutely right, workflow is very important. The Brumbaer tools do an amazing job and they are lightning fast - you guys deserve a price, but it is more of a utility than an application (absolutely no disrespect here for Stephen Hess or you). It is a fantastic tool to have when you are done shooting and you do not have a client with you. You cannot use the BT with a client looking over you shoulder expecting you to incorporate a layout overlay – it is simply not possible. When the BT is implemented in a full-featured Sinar software, it will be a different story. At this point, Capture One allows you to do everything except for lens falloff, but I believe it will be also included in the new C1 v4. In both cases we are looking into the future, what I was talking about is now. No matter what you choose right now involves some sort of compromise, that is why it is so important to test with these products to find the equipment that fits one’s needs.

Mariusz
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2007, 07:07:12 pm »

From what I was meant to believe, the Brumbear tool will be implemented with the New Sinar eXposure software.
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