Big color differences: PS vs noncolor managed Apps

[Sebastian]

Hi,

I saw "From Camera to Print" and also read Bruce's "Color Management". Until today I was convinced I understood Color Management. BUT:

First my config:
I have a calibrated Monitor (profile is assigned as default in Windows).
In PS I use AdobeRGB for RGB working space.

I open an image (RAW) in AdobeRGB 16bit. Then I do my editing...
Finally convert it to sRGB 8bit to save a jpg copy. And with that one I have the problem: when I open this image in a non-color managed application (like IrfanView) the color look oversaturated / with reddish cast.
In ACDSee Pro 2 I can enable/disable color management. Disabled looks like IrfanView (oversaturated), enabled like PS.

I also checked the pictures on another PC (not calibrated monitor) and there they look oversaturated aslo.

Does anybody have an idea?

thanks
Sebastian

[digitaldog]

Does anybody have an idea?

thanks
Sebastian
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Sure. As you say, you're viewing the numbers in a color managed application and one that's not. So what's the difference?

In a color managed application, the RGB numbers have an associated color space (sRGB) AND the application is looking at the display profile to produce a preview using BOTH profiles here (sRGB+Display profile).

Non ICC or color managed applications just take the RGB numbers and send them to the display. They have no idea about the display condition described by the display profile nor do they know the color space of the document. So they don't match.

Even though you have a calibrated display, non ICC aware applications don't provide the correct previews since they have no idea about the two profiles being used in say Photoshop.

[Sebastian]

Hi Andrew,

thanks a lot for the quick response. But I'm still confused.
Does PS care about my Monitor profile at all? The way I understood is that I configure in OS how the colors are interpreted and the graphic driver will do the needed adjustments.

This is how I understood it is working (and I might be wrong   )
When I open an AdobeRGB image in e.g. IrfanView colors look soft: because it has no color management it interprets these values as sRGB. So a value 200 in AdobeRGB is brighter than 200 in sRGB because AdobeRGB can adress more (brighter) colors.

That's why I have converted the images to sRGB before saving it as JPG.
Then I would expect the colors in non-color management applications and PS to match. I haven't expected a difference between PS and non-color managed Applications when it comes to sRGB images.

What I have used to convert the images to sRGB is:
Convert to Profile: sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Engine: Adobe (ACE)
Intent: Relative Colorimetric
use black point compensation

I have now tested one more thing:
I saved the jpg with AdobeRGB profile and now the image looks the same in IrfanView! I don't get it  

I'm now more confused than before...
Do I maybe have a kind of "double" color management, so the numbers are shifted twice?

Sebastian

[digitaldog]

Does PS care about my Monitor profile at all? The way I understood is that I configure in OS how the colors are interpreted and the graphic driver will do the needed adjustments.

PS does of course, its an ICC aware application. It uses the profile to adjust the previews along with the profile describing the RGB or CMYK numbers. Non ICC aware applications don't.

So PS doesn't care squat about the calibration of the display, it cares about the profile that is supposed to define this calibration behavior.

When I open an AdobeRGB image in e.g. IrfanView colors look soft: because it has no color management it interprets these values as sRGB. So a value 200 in AdobeRGB is brighter than 200 in sRGB because AdobeRGB can adress more (brighter) colors.

Not really. It doesn't know the RGB numbers are sRGB. It just throws those numbers to the display. Same with any color space. But sRGB looks the best (OK, least poor) because its closest to the display behavior which is an sRGB device.

That's why I have converted the images to sRGB before saving it as JPG.
Then I would expect the colors in non-color management applications and PS to match. I haven't expected a difference between PS and non-color managed Applications when it comes to sRGB images.

You convert to sRGB because the device you're working with is hopefully close to sRGB behavior. IF you had a wide gamut display, say one that produce Adobe RGB (1998), an sRGB image would look poor in a non ICC aware application, an Adobe RGB document would look OK.

If I waved a wand and every display on earth now was an Adobe RGB wide gamut unit, all web images, everything in sRGB outside ICC aware applications would look like crap, we'd all be using Adobe RGB for web images and non ICC aware applications. But none would be correct until we viewed them in an ICC aware application that uses both the display profile and the document profile to produce a preview.

[jbrembat]

The way I understood is that I configure in OS how the colors are interpreted and the graphic driver will do the needed adjustments.

It isn't correct.CMMs do color managemenent, not graphic card or Windows.

when I open this image in a non-color managed application (like IrfanView) the color look oversaturated / with reddish cast.

It seems your monitor gamut is similar to Adobe1998.
But...

I also checked the pictures on another PC (not calibrated monitor) and there they look oversaturated also.

Unless both monitors are similar (i.e. large gamut)..something went wrong in your conversion.

When I open an AdobeRGB image in e.g. IrfanView colors look soft: because it has no color management it interprets these values as sRGB.

But....

I saved the jpg with AdobeRGB profile and now the image looks the same in IrfanView!

I don't undersdtand.

Just a note, as digitaldog said:

Non ICC or color managed applications just take the RGB numbers and send them to the display.

If you can post an image or your profile, that can be useful to discover the problem, if any.

Jacopo

[Sebastian]

IF you had a wide gamut display, say one that produce Adobe RGB (1998), an sRGB image would look poor in a non ICC aware application, an Adobe RGB document would look OK.
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I have a wide gamut display that matches ~95% of Adobe RGB. So this would explain the behaviour. My 2nd screen can reproduce sRGB. Here the images look fine. Until now I explained this to myself because I use the profile of my wide gamut display for both of them the "sRGB Display" gets wrong adjustments.
I have the wide gamut display since maybe a month and did a lot of editing and printing in PS and was very happy with the results (with softproofing I got pretty much what I wanted to).
I recognized this behaviour of non-color managed applications because I mailed some images and got the response: nice, but my skin is a little bit too red. I had the chance to check the images on her screen (not calibrated, sRGB gamut) and indeed, they were oversaturated. Then I checked on my screen later and recognized this and started wondering why the images look oversaturated on both screens...
I now understand why the images look like this on my wide gamut screen.
Currenlty I think the other display of my friend is just completely wrong setup and the images just seem to look oversaturated the same way on my and her screen.
On my next visit I will bring my EyeOne with me and calibrate the device. We'll see...

Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation!

I didn't have time to update my webpage since I have the new screen. The lesson from today is I will cross-check the appreance of the web-converted images on my 2nd sRGB screen.

Sebastian

[Sebastian]

It seems your monitor gamut is similar to Adobe1998.
But...
Unless both monitors are similar (i.e. large gamut)..something went wrong in your conversion.
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You're right, mine is close to AdobeRGB. The other one I don't know for sure, but I would extremely be surprised if it can display more than sRGB: it's a LCD that is several years old and was purchased at a discounter. So I will calibrate this one the next time...

I thought it was the same problem on both screens, but now it looks like we have two (where at least the first thing is not a problem, but expected behaviour):
1. On my wide gamut display I get wrong colors with non-colormanaged applications if I view anything different than AdobeRGB images (they will also not be 100% accurate, but the difference will be very little). It's the same with non-sRGB images on sRGB displays.

2. On the 2nd non-calibrated screen that is most likely limited to something around sRGB I now assume a wrong setup. We'll see...

I was just confused because it seemed that the image looked oversaturated in the same way on both displays. But as I don't have the chance to compare both displays directly next to each other this was only my personal feeling...


So thanks a lot also for your input Jacopo. Right now I'm not that confused anymore