Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!  (Read 39100 times)

jing q

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 594
    • we are super
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2007, 03:01:45 AM »

Quote
SCANNING the 6x7s:

(1) How many MB from each 6x7 would be sufficient for web posting here, Epson/Drum??

(2) Likewise, how many MB scans to show quality in prints for my eyes??

Got email from the guy I used before in Shanghai:
Epson 4870, cost 1.0 China RMB per MB
Drum, cost 1.2 China RMB per MB (unkown drum scanner)

Expect files here Monday or Tuesday due drum scanning, his retouch of Epson and sending them by internet to me. Based on your comments I will select what to do    .

Regards   
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154325\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

there are some shitty drum scanners out there mind you...I was in Singapore and sent some files for drum scans and they turned out oversharpened and lacking in grain structure for some reason...I'm sticking with my imacon scans.
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2007, 08:17:25 PM »

Quote
SCANNING the 6x7s:

(1) How many MB from each 6x7 would be sufficient for web posting here, Epson/Drum??

(2) Likewise, how many MB scans to show quality in prints for my eyes??

Got email from the guy I used before in Shanghai:
Epson 4870, cost 1.0 China RMB per MB
Drum, cost 1.2 China RMB per MB (unkown drum scanner)

Expect files here Monday or Tuesday due drum scanning, his retouch of Epson and sending them by internet to me. Based on your comments I will select what to do    .

Regards   
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154325\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Any suggestion on what file size I should have scanned to???

Rgds
Anders
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10122
    • Echophoto
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2007, 01:28:04 AM »

Hi,

I don't really understand the question. If you want to post something which is intended for display on the screen I would expect that 1024x768 would be just nice. To convert it MB you would need to use the following formula

1024*768*3/1048576

which would be 2.25 MByte

If  you would use 16 bits/color the file size would be doubled, that is 4.5 MByte.

Regarding scanning I have a feeling that the following would probably apply for 6x7 scans

1) You should scan at a minimum of 1600 PPI
2) Going above 3200 PPI would in my experience give diminishing returns

File size for 16 MByte 16 bits/color scan from 6x7 (assuming size of 55x69 mm) would be

Height= 55/25.4 -> 2.165"
Width = 69/25.4 -> 2.71"
BytesPerColor = 16/8 -> 2

The formula is:

With * Height * PPI * PPI * 3 * BytePerColor / 1048576

1600 PPI -> 86   MByte
3200 PPI -> 344 MByte

The magic number 1048576 is 1024*1024. It is the size of a MByte. It may also be 1000000. The first size is the one normally used in computer science and latter one is often used when talking about size of hard disks (because smaller Mbytes make a larger number).

The normal approach is that you scan at the highest resolution you have access to and scale down  to the size needed (using "Bicubic sharper?" in PS). You always need to sharpen after changing scale.  

Best regards

Erik

Quote
Any suggestion on what file size I should have scanned to???

Rgds
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

jparadise

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2007, 08:15:39 PM »

Hi Anders -- this should be fun can't wait to see the scans -- here is a quick attempt -- all cs3 with a variety of nik filters -- graduated nd, skylight and tonal contrast.

[attachment=3969:attachment]

[attachment=3970:attachment]

[attachment=3971:attachment]
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 09:05:06 PM by jparadise »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2007, 11:25:50 PM »

Ok, I am off to Shanghai this afternoon, which means I leave office in less than two hours from this post. Lets see how good scans I will get! Erik, thanks for reply on size and MBs... much helpful.

I hope I will be able post on Monday, but if not within a few days from that.

Please keep on posting  

Regards
Anders
Logged

capital

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 184
    • Website
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2007, 01:12:30 AM »

Quote
Please keep on posting   

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Anders,

Thanks for posting the raw files, here's my take on your monastery.

I am wondering if I can rent the ZD back in my area (SF Bay Area) to test it out.

[attachment=3975:attachment]
[attachment=3999:attachment]
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 04:41:25 PM by capital »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2007, 06:21:05 AM »

My apologies for the delay in posting of scans. We had some problems in transfer of one (and I wanted post all at once). Actually the problem one was from the Epson scan of the temple which I now from two corrupted versions have assembled to one.

The scans I now first post are 5161 x 4134 or 21MP or a little over 60MB each.

Please do not look at pixel level detail YET. I have a DVD on way by EMS with a high resolution drum scan of the sunrise at sea. That one is said to be around 120cmX140cm @ 300DPI  8bit  RGB =  670.5MB. That is what my contact in Shanghai belives to be what can bring out maximum from a 6x7 slide.

I am happy that many have enjoyed this exercise. So have I. It has taught me alot. Perhaps I should be more dary at processing, something I should also learn from my favourite film Fuji Velvia 50. Yet... for landscape I also note that it is important for it to be enhanced in a way that even if bold still looks natural. In my eye it looks a bit odd making too warm sunlight hues out of a light that is not. For the sunrise at sea scene, the Velvia really was a strong exaggeration of the purple. Seeing in slide made me go wow! Seing on computer made me wonder what was going on... I guess my eye still have some training to do. That particular shot is from a special place near my parents place in Sweden. They usually go for walks there near each summer day when weather is nice, even now when they are in their eighties. I shot it on my last visit in July when I went there for first light on a half cloudy day, very early...

Some info from my man in Shanghai on the scanning...
- The differences in colors are from using different scanning systems. There has been no PP adjustments of colors after the scans. Any color changes are propably not the cause of difficulties of scanning Fuji Velvia 50.
- Scanners used:
Epson 4870.
Drum scanner is ‘Wangpin 8060 from Japan’


Please give me your comments and thoughts to what you see in comparison to the ZD raw and processed files (yet wait about pixels until my high resolution post in hopefully a few days).

Now let me attempt post the scans... Please bear in mind that all files I post are COPYRIGHTED and only posted for our learning of photographics.

Regards  
Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 06:25:23 AM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2007, 07:41:54 AM »

Epson 4870 - Scanned to Adobe RGB.
Converted to sRGB and reduced to 1200pixels width using CS3 for ease of posting.
No other PP.

Rgds
Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 07:44:42 AM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2007, 07:57:23 AM »

Drum scanner ‘Wangpin 8060 from Japan’ - Scanned to sRGB.
Reduced to 1200pixels width using CS3 for ease of posting.
No other PP.

Oh +... all scans were TIF, but here and Epsons converted to JPG for ease of posting.

Now attempting yousendit link to original21MP TIF drum scans...

Rgds
Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 08:04:19 AM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2007, 09:14:54 AM »

Ok, here is a link to original 21MP drum scans for those who would like to download (valid for certain time only).

http://download.yousendit.com/52C515AC165F9708

Yet for resolution let us await my one high resolution drum scan... that will be interesting. But... of course there is more than resolution is it not? ... just looking at those drum scans...  

But please post any comments so far...  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 09:16:54 AM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2007, 09:50:28 AM »

Very nice but for me WAY oversharpenend.
There are alot of halos.
Do they deliver it like that ?

Than my V700 scans look better to be honest (hope I don't piss anyone off now)
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2007, 09:59:01 AM »

Quote
Very nice but for me WAY oversharpenend.
There are alot of halos.
Do they deliver it like that ?

Than my V700 scans look better to be honest (hope I don't piss anyone off now)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Do they deliver them like that ?" - yes.

  if your V700 does better than these drum scans, then I should A. send you my slides ( for hopeful low fee scanning   )  or B. buy a V700 myself!

Slides are still magic to me..., something about the CHEAP fuji velvia 50 'sensor' yet... horses are for courses...  

Regards
Anders
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2007, 11:20:34 AM »

Send me a few and I will do a scan for you no problem.

What I meant was that I find them incredible oversharpened.
I would expect that they delivered them without sharpening, that's the way I would want my scans.

The V700 does a very nice job to be honest, it struck me with delight, the scans are really good and for that price
I will try to upload something this afternoon
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2007, 01:13:13 PM »

In about 16 minutes on www.frankdoorhof.com/neg.zip will be online till tomorrow morning and only for this forum.

Color scan is without a holder but something I made myself because the official epson holder is very bad for MF.

The B&W scan is with the holder from betterscanning which works great.

There is no Photoshop done expect a slight sharpening.
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2007, 04:48:03 PM »

Quote
Send me a few and I will do a scan for you no problem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158165\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,

I was joking actually   , but your negs tells me to contact Epson in Hong Kong for a free demo (they are closer here, if fails will email you).

Your B&W is grainy (pleasant so), but your color neg throws me off!   , anyone downloading resize it to pixels of the ZD and what do you see?? Any advantage to digital??? And that was 400 ISO negative film, not slide, and 645, not 6x7, and not on best drum scanner.

Ok, digital has advantage in DR. Or does it??? Look at my lake shot. Film is less DR but renders the dark and light transitions very nice and with less time in PP. Ok, that was Fuji Velvia 50, but with Fuji Sensia 100 there would be less contrast and perhaps more like the ZD.

Ability to control DR, tone and color? Can do with film also, after scanning. Ok, speed... digital hands down.

Comments????  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 04:49:40 PM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2007, 05:35:22 PM »

Well actually I have a shot that I did with both the 400VC and the Leaf and the Leaf CLEARLY shows more detail in the picture.
Not that the negative is soft or anything but the Leaf is just much more detailed.

On the other hand I was surprised with the output/input from the V700 which is relativly cheap.

DR is indeed another issue.
When I look at scans the darks are muddy compared to the leaf.
But the clipping of highlights is more pleasant for the eyes.

I think for color under ISO200 I will never even think about using film for anything else than hobby.
HOWEVER, with B&W and ISO400 and above I do like the film quality very very much.

I expected much less when I bought the film back to be honest.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 05:37:24 PM by Frank Doorhof »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2007, 07:01:46 AM »

John & All,

John you are indeed right and correct. This post is teaching me lots and that was my purpose, that and to explore. All posted replies has made me broaden my mind in processing. Indeed the scans are helping me see what my 6x7s can go for... and hopefully to arrive at the right proportions of film and digital for my future. I wish to maintain both. That said, unlike for pros, for us amateures there is no way to balance cost, it simply costs... film would propably be cheaper for me (& simpler, since when medium format less frames shot and to scan than 35  ), yet... I wish stay and develop in digital also, and with high quality.

I much appreciate all replies to this thread. Let us see when I get that high resolution scan within a few days. But already now I am amazed by the shine and light from those drum scans. I am not convinced that it is easy to make files from ZD equal those from Fuji slides in my 7ii. Why should we? They are different medias and we should try use each to fullest. With film we can get to already predermined settings that are beautiful and need little tweak. With digital we have more possibilities, yet we have same with film if we also choose tweak them from our scans. The ZD do feel more photographic than my D200 was... I like and enjoy photographing both the ZD and 7ii   .

A slight issue is the weight in my bag... yet.. the ZD system weighs no more than a pro DSLR system... I love my 7ii also...; an amazing box with big hole for film and to attach superb optics.... simpler than ZD in ways...

I am happy if others have and still enjoy this thread same as me   .

Regards  
Anders
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:53:11 AM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Frank Doorhof

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1522
    • http://
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2007, 04:04:13 AM »

Just to add.
The files are scans from 6x4.5 negatives.
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2007, 09:05:21 PM »

I got the high resolution drumscan from ‘Wangpin 8060 from Japan’. It is a 17244 x 13642 pixel scan TIF file of 673MB. My conclusion: this is different media from the ZD and there is no winner. Per my eyes it takes more to clear beat 6x7, but I am yet to print this comparison. Not that the purpose was to show that digital or film beats the other... they are different medias that both are good from these cameras   .

The ZD files were processed to TIF in Silkypix, thereafter up-sized in CS3 using bicubic smoother (enlargement) to same pixel width as the high resolution drumscan. TIF files were saved to JPG for posting. I used the 43mm on the 7ii and 35mm on the ZD, both at ISO 50.

Attached are to show framing of the ZD and 7ii.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 10:56:39 PM by Anders_HK »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
The MFDB vs Slide Film Challenge!
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2007, 10:32:00 PM »

Reduced sized crops are attached, same full size crops can be found in these download links:

http://download.yousendit.com/A9AF9E0578F850B6
http://download.yousendit.com/34C98012520FB992

(valid for 500 downloads, 14 days)
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up