Topic: The name of our DB (Read 76296 times)

Anthony R · « **Reply #120 on:** November 20, 2007, 11:33:06 pm »

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Not to intentionally be a dick either, but what poll are you looking at that "very closely mimics [your] experience" and "guesstimate" of "around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market"??
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loose estimate. The others do not make a signifigant enough dent in the differences to matter. It's a Leaf or Phase world PRIMARILY. And I don't care.

TechTalk · « **Reply #121 on:** November 21, 2007, 12:13:07 am »

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loose estimate. The others do not make a signifigant enough dent in the differences to matter. It's a Leaf or Phase world PRIMARILY. And I don't care.
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By any estimate, the world of digital imaging is a rapidly changing one. Whether you care or not, I hope you enjoy the ride. It should be fun to watch the evolution.

ctz · « **Reply #122 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:02:36 am »

p45+ on sinar p2 and mamiya afd2

Hans_de_Kort · « **Reply #123 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:06:32 am »

P30+
Hans de Kort

Dustbak · « **Reply #124 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:07:25 am »

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So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the things we have in common (all speak English (I suppose), all use digital backs, all like doing photography, all use internet etc) doesn't actually have any bearing on which back you would choose.

So then, why are the figures not at least indicative, if not statistically valid?
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I think what most of us have in common is an interest in participating in a forum and a higher technical understanding than average (if going by forum participation).

From what I notice over here (the Netherlands) Hasselblad has been able to interest people in their H3D solution that previously did not look at medium format. They know the name and feel they can get a complete solution instead of having to deal with parts and mix & Match. This doesn't say that is better it is just easier to understand for some people and probably instills more faith as well. These people also tend to show up on fora less which might count for the lower percentage of Hassie.

Naturally this is also speculating on my side.

I think this is a fair distribution and valid if you take into consideration all parameters. Just as valid as any other test of this magnitude.

Does it mean it is correct? Not necessarily so.

mcrepsej · « **Reply #125 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:29:52 am »

PhaseOne P45+
Mamiya RZ IID
Cambo DSWide

McRepsej
Denmark

NBP · « **Reply #126 on:** November 21, 2007, 03:45:00 am »

Leaf Aptus 65
RZ67

jonstewart · « **Reply #127 on:** November 21, 2007, 07:50:40 am »

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My point was NOT to offend, but merely to suggest that such a broad interpretation of the figures might be reaching, just a bit. Had I known it would offend you, Jon, in such a distinctly personal way and result in being soundly flamed, I would simply not have bothered. I really don't care who is the leading MFDB mfr. They ALL work well and are useful tools. Obviously, it's a very personal choice for some. I also have had enough of this site and will likely "Tucker" myself as well.
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Sorry for the tone: You didn't offend me at all. Just thought I would rebutt your assertion.

Neither did I intend to flame you, it just sounded like that. I guess that's one of the difficulties about using this method of communication.

I actually stopped participating in dpreview, because I was sick and tired of unreasoned and unjustified assertion (yours wasn't either of these, it had some validity), and anybody who made criticism got repeatedly flamed by a number of others. Hence it's deterioration into mud slinging.

I for one am more interested in developing my knowledge of all the sort of areas we discuss here in this forum, but I'd be the first to admit / accept / apologise that sometimes my posts look (at least partly) reactionary and offensive. I apologise to all and any concerned.

So I'm not posting any more on this thread unless someone asks me something directly
Jon

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #128 on:** November 21, 2007, 07:52:53 am »

The poll doesn't prove that Phase/Leaf are overwhelming the market, after all it is just a local simple poll, but it shows that here, in the English speaking Luminous Landscape part of the world it is so, and Hasselblad has put their cards on the table with the H3. Q1 2008 we will see what is going to happen with the introduction of two open systems, Hy6 and the Phase camera (we may also see an improved low costing second generation ZD-C1 back)

Leonardo
PS DISCLAIMER: I am not, or never have been associate with Mamiya or Phase and have never had "something to gain" from stating my humble opinions on this or any other forums. If I did so I would be a rich man since I like to do that a lot.

Quote

Leaf Aptus 65
RZ67
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Ray · « **Reply #129 on:** November 21, 2007, 09:42:21 am »

This is not my area of expertise which is why I ask. Don't the various DB manufacturers tell their shareholders how many units they sell each year?

Is it really only about money? 'We made a net profit of X dollars and we'll tell you all the expenses and debts, but how many units we sold is a trade secret' .

Is this how it is?

pprdigital · « **Reply #130 on:** November 21, 2007, 11:49:39 am »

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Not to intentionally be a dick, but Steve Hendrix, where are your facts now? Based on the poll thus far it very closely mimics my experience and contradicts your 'facts'. If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.. Obviously 'sensor sales' are moot and I do believe my experience out weighs that of a salesman in Atlanta. Additionally, my experience is not from one market. Before moving to NY I was in Seattle and I have exposure to files and photographers from around the world.

I did not respond to your post before because I agree it doesn't warrant debate. However, you are wrong, as I originally stated.

Nov 17 2007, 04:27 PM
Post #187

regular

Group: Members
Posts: 271
Joined: 3-November 04
From: Atlanta, GA
Member No.: 8,592

QUOTE(Anthony R @ Nov 17 2007, 06:16 PM)

Anthony:

We'll save the discussions of genitalia for another thread...

If one knows where to look, you will find plenty of facts.

The idea that a poll on an online forum where 126 or so members (out of a market estimated around 10,000) have indicated which back they own provides evidence of any market leadership is not founded in reality. And while New York is certainly a large and influential market, it's worldwide impact is only 5% of the complete market.

It's easy for photographers to look around and assume they are seeing the reality of an overall market by what is going on around them. But the fact is local market share can be very misleading. It is not necessarily based on who has the best product, particularly for ownership. How market share is attained is also very complex and misleading. It also assumes that no one else exists other than the photographers you know and see and who shoot for clients you know and see. It supposes that there are few photographers who are not known by you or your clients.

Market share itself is a very easily misunderstood statistic. A company can have leading market share, and declining sales numbers. Still be perceived as the leader, but yet be losing ground to it's competitors. Since market share is always a changing dynamic, sales growth is a more accurate indicator of who really has their ducks in a row.

So think for a minute...you can't know every photographer out there. And what we have seen in our sales is that many photographers work very much under the radar. In an assistant/rental-driven market, there is a lot more "chatter" of who is who. A significant portion of our sales are to photographers that not only aren't known to other photographers, sometimes they're not even known to us. We don't know where they come from or where they were hiding. But they exist, in large numbers throughout the world, and they quietly do their work. A more accurate indicator of market share is not who you may be aware of is using a particular product, but the purchasing numbers from various suppliers...if you get my drift. And if you looked hard enough, you could probably find out that cold truth.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

AndreNapier · « **Reply #131 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:14:48 pm »

What I do not understand from this or many other recent threats in this forum is why Pros are sooo..
preoccupied with defending their choices of brands. If it was not enough to constantly prove that our work is better than the work of the other guy in our market we also have to fight about our choices of cameras and digital devices. It is not like using P1 vs Leaf vs H etc. gives any better status or prestige. What I would like to hear is what you like about your choice instead of constantly reminding me that my choice is wrong as I am not affiliated with the leading brand. I do not find comfort in following the flock. I use Leaf and I would be completely comfortable if I was the only Leaf user left in USA. I use it because it works for ME! I used Phase for six years exclusively and switching was not an easy decision for me. Learning the new workflow was very hard so I had to see some real results to justify the transition. What I love about my back is the way the sensor captures colors. And no, you can not match with post processing. I gave the task to the best and most experience retouchers
and the results were still not the same for me. I am not saying here that Leaf colors are better. They are just better for me. I love the way Leaf captures whites and over-exposed areas around shiny object.
I love the fact that my moire problem is much less frequent with syntetic materials. I love the over all closer look to the film appearance that I was used to. I love that it works like a charm with RZ,
never giving me any errors so I can just concentrate on my work. I love the fact that very few other photogs are using A75S with Rz for fashion work so my work do not look as generic as if it was shot by the other guy.
Tell us what you like about your choice - whatever it is.
http://Andrenapier.com

Don Libby · « **Reply #132 on:** November 21, 2007, 07:28:24 pm »

It’s amassing to me how a simple poll question has blown into an almost out and out war of words….

There is simply no way in hell that everyone, meaning more than two like minded people will agree on anything let alone which camera system is “better”.

When I first started back into photography I choose Canon. My very best friend used and swore by a Nikon. What we soon decided after several hundreds of images is that the better image belonged to the person who took it, was in the right place and right time, and was fortunate enough to get all the variables correct. It wasn’t about the equipment, it was about the skill.

I was glad to see this poll as I was wondering what others used. I don’t care a hoot if Phase One came in dead last.

Again it’s about the skill not the equipment. The days of lens with glass looking like they came from a coke bottle reject are long gone.

Enough said …..

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #133 on:** November 21, 2007, 08:39:34 pm »

I stopped by on my way form West Chelsea where I was shooting --this is to show that I'am a working photographer, may be even a pro-- by Calumet that is on 22w 22cond. Street to pick up a copy of something I only knew recently existed and wanted very much: "CAPTURE ONE APPLIED CRAFTSMANSHIP / ADVANDED APPLICATION MANUAL" by Walter W. Borchenko a detailed beautifully printed "bible" for the use of C1 (seams to be not super new but not too old because it shows a box of PS CS2 on one of the illustrations).

Anyway, I decided to continue with the un scientific reckless polling practices started by other with Mr. Irwin Miller, the head sales person exclusive of digital back from Calumet, one of the biggest camera backs in the USA. He was very busy as is his custom, but I told him about rumors of Hasselblad taking over the MFDB world. He said that not so in his knowledge and that "perhaps they are getting even with the Leaf backs in sales", but that Phase was ahead of the two. Then I polled the person in charge of renting equipment also at Calumet and he confirmed the notion. "Hasselblad wants to sell more backs, but photographers want Phase and Leaf" he said.

I know that this is not important, that the camera doesn't make the photographer etc, etc, but I always enjoy streams of raw information even if they are small streams and a big river may be on the other side of the mountain for me to discover...

hubell · « **Reply #134 on:** November 21, 2007, 09:00:57 pm »

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I stopped by on my way form West Chelsea where I was shooting --this is to show that I'am a working photographer, may be even a pro-- by Calumet that is on 22w 22cond. Street to pick up a copy of something I only knew recently existed and wanted very much: "CAPTURE ONE APPLIED CRAFTSMANSHIP / ADVANDED APPLICATION MANUAL" by Walter W. Borchenko a detailed beautifully printed "bible" for the use of C1 (seams to be not super new but not too old because it shows a box of PS CS2 on one of the illustrations).

Anyway, I decided to continue with the un scientific reckless polling practices started by other with Mr. Irwin Miller, the head sales person exclusive of digital back from Calumet, one of the biggest camera backs in the USA. He was very busy as is his custom, but I told him about rumors of Hasselblad taking over the MFDB world. He said that not so in his knowledge and that "perhaps they are getting even with the Leaf backs in sales", but that Phase was ahead of the two. Then I polled the person in charge of renting equipment also at Calumet and he confirmed the notion. "Hasselblad wants to sell more backs, but photographers want Phase and Leaf" he said.

I know that this is not important, that the camera doesn't make the photographer etc, etc, but I always enjoy streams of raw information even if they are small streams and a big river may be on the other side of the mountain for me to discover...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I appreciate your field work, but a little friendly advice. The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces.

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #135 on:** November 21, 2007, 09:35:04 pm »

hcubell, At least I use my name and post my website where people can see my work, and no, I am not successful and or highly respected, I never said I was, just a working photographer. And the yellow faces, you have a point there, I may stop that, thanks.

Leonardo

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I appreciate your field work, but a little friendly advice. The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

AndreNapier · « **Reply #136 on:** November 21, 2007, 09:43:18 pm »

Wow!

Leonardo Barreto · « **Reply #137 on:** November 21, 2007, 10:01:02 pm »

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Wow!
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AndreNapier, "The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces."

You must be unsuccessfull, not respected unemployed consumer ... or ... NOT

hubell · « **Reply #138 on:** November 21, 2007, 10:10:06 pm »

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hcubell, At least I use my name and post my website where people can see my work, and no, I am not successful and or highly respected, I never said I was, just a working photographer. And the yellow faces, you have a point there, I may stop that, thanks.

Leonardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just kidding. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

TechTalk · « **Reply #139 on:** November 21, 2007, 10:28:14 pm »

Quote

What I do not understand from this or many other recent threats in this forum is why Pros are sooo..
preoccupied with defending their choices of brands. If it was not enough to constantly prove that our work is better than the work of the other guy in our market we also have to fight about our choices of cameras and digital devices. It is not like using P1 vs Leaf vs H etc. gives any better status or prestige. What I would like to hear is what you like about your choice instead of constantly reminding me that my choice is wrong as I am not affiliated with the leading brand. I do not find comfort in following the flock. I use Leaf and I would be completely comfortable if I was the only Leaf user left in USA. I use it because it works for ME! I used Phase for six years exclusively and switching was not an easy decision for me. Learning the new workflow was very hard so I had to see some real results to justify the transition. What I love about my back is the way the sensor captures colors. And no, you can not match with post processing. I gave the task to the best and most experience retouchers
and the results were still not the same for me. I am not saying here that Leaf colors are better. They are just better for me. I love the way Leaf captures whites and over-exposed areas around shiny object.
I love the fact that my moire problem is much less frequent with syntetic materials. I love the over all closer look to the film appearance that I was used to. I love that it works like a charm with RZ,
never giving me any errors so I can just concentrate on my work. I love the fact that very few other photogs are using A75S with Rz for fashion work so my work do not look as generic as if it was shot by the other guy.
Tell us what you like about your choice - whatever it is.
http://Andrenapier.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thoughtful, well reasoned and most of all positive! Thanks, very refreshing to read.

Poll

What's the name of your DB?

Author Topic: The name of our DB (Read 76296 times)