H3D vs. Valeo 17: Valeo wins, colorwise ...

[Bernd B.]

I don´t know what you guys are experiencing with you Leaf and Imacon backs, but I`m quite a bit disappointed with my new H3D. The colors of my old Valeo 17 were way better. With the H3D everything looks like beeing in the same sauce, like I had it with my 5D when using DPP and C1pro, before ARC 4 came out. The Valeo gives every little thing its own color, like there was someone with a pallet of colours sitting in the back and paint brushes every picture.

The skin tones of the H3D are way too red. If you try to tweak them towards yellow in Flexcolor or in Photoshop/selective color/reds an unattractive orange cast is the result, whereas the valeo reacts fine for such manipulation, if needed.

All in all I wish I had bought an Aptus 75 instead. But I was to keen on working with the 28mm.

Hopefully Phocus has not only a newer user interface and gimmicks like the Anti-Moire-Tool (ok, agreed, it is useful), but also a new engine that gives better colors.

Does anybody know what "natural color solution" means, or is it just a BMH (big marketing hype).

Best,

Bernd

[johnkraus]

I tested out the H3DII31 last week and found the coloration very good. Skin tones looked great, and neutrals stayed neutral.
I was comparison testing with a P30+ and, in that series of tests, found the H3DII to have overall better colors- more analog, more film like.
Are you experienced with Flexcolor? One problem with the software is that it has so much control that it's very easy to tweak it incorrectly. For me:
1) Make sure you either get your color temp off a grey card or choose a setting that matches your environment. Even then grey card is better.
2) Before you set anything else adjust exposure with the exposure slider.
3) Bring in low and high histogram arrows to taste.
4) Bump up the curve if you want a bit more mid-exposure punch.
At least for me if I follow this recipe the color just snapped right in.
I think the NCS color has some bones in it- not just hype.

[hubell]

I tested out the H3DII31 last week and found the coloration very good. Skin tones looked great, and neutrals stayed neutral.
I was comparison testing with a P30+ and, in that series of tests, found the H3DII to have overall better colors- more analog, more film like.
Are you experienced with Flexcolor? One problem with the software is that it has so much control that it's very easy to tweak it incorrectly. For me:
1) Make sure you either get your color temp off a grey card or choose a setting that matches your environment. Even then grey card is better.
2) Before you set anything else adjust exposure with the exposure slider.
3) Bring in low and high histogram arrows to taste.
4) Bump up the curve if you want a bit more mid-exposure punch.
At least for me if I follow this recipe the color just snapped right in.
I think the NCS color has some bones in it- not just hype.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with John about the rendition of color with the H3D. It is excellent, but the color out of the box really does suck unless you properly white balance with a grey card or Expo Disk. There is no auto white balance in the back; there is in the software but it is lousy.  The white balance presets in the camera are also a joke. (The preset color with the H3DII (at least  on the new LCD) seems to be much better, but I only handled it briefly.) By working with the camera and shooting some grey cards in the lighting conditions that are  typical for the type of work you do, you can also establish some useful WB presets that will get you in the ballpark without a grey card and you then just need to season to taste in Flexcolor with the  temperature sliders.
My sense is that none of the MFDBs are set it and forget it when it comes  to WB. The new Hy6 has a built-in RGB color temp sensor for setting WB and I am very interested to see how this will work. In theory, seems like a very innovative approach.
For Hasselblad's explanation of what NCS is , take a look at [a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.com/products/hasselblad-star-quality/natural-color.aspx]http://www.hasselblad.com/products/hasselb...ural-color.aspx[/url]

[Dustbak]

Same here & yes, you should always use greycards but I am pretty sure you do?

[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\'] Though I have to admit, I am sometimes very lazy especially when I know the exact circumstances I am working in.[/span]

[Bernd B.]

I did use a grey card today for the first time. With the valeo I just didn´t need it. I played a bit with the color temperature and tint slider and it just snapped in oviously, what was the right setting.

With the H3D I tried it manually, but I always had the impression something was wrong.

Using the gray card for the first time was interesting. I looked a the picture in Flexcolor and thought: aha, that´s the correct setting. Mostly it was way to warm. The skin tones are still too red. One of the pictures became beautiful after adding a curve, but the others still lacked something.

I think the general color rendition sucks. I made a comparision with files of my 5D when ARC 4 came out: In the background of a setting were some unimportant things, out of focus. In the file processed with C1pro everything had a pale greyish tint, undistiguishable from each other, unattractive. When I processed the same raw file with ACR 4 colors showed up: what formerly was just one greyish mud turned out to be an intensivly blue window grill in front of a yellow wall. I don´t talk about any oversaturated effects but there were just colors that weren`t there with C1pro, with a very natural appearance. I think the H3D and Flexcolor have the same problem. OK, it is better than a 5D with C1pro, but the colors don´t stand out as clearly as, lets say a Leaf back, a simple Nikon (hello D70), or my 5D in ACR 4.

I hope that Hasselblad will invest a bit of development here. My own experience with my 5D shows that improved software can get very different results from the same hardware.

Bernd

[ixpressraf]

Perhaps you should invest some time in getting to know the working of flexcolor before making statements that the H3 colors are bad. Thousends of photographers are using them with great succes. As you said, you didn't use the gray card or other gray balancing device, probably your color settings are also not as intended by hasselblad... and so on.
I do absolutely not want to attack you are anybody else but words spread very fast on the net and giving false information helps no one.
If you ask your rep. forr some help or go to the" flexframe group" on Yahoo for info and i am sure you will be very pleased with the colors of the H3d.
I am and i also used to use Phase and leaf in the recent past.
Good luck and i am sure that with some help your colors will come out perfect.
greetz from belgium.

[godtfred]

I did use a grey card today for the first time. With the valeo I just didn´t need it. I played a bit with the color temperature and tint slider and it just snapped in oviously, what was the right setting.

With the H3D I tried it manually, but I always had the impression something was wrong.

Using the gray card for the first time was interesting. I looked a the picture in Flexcolor and thought: aha, that´s the correct setting. Mostly it was way to warm. The skin tones are still too red. One of the pictures became beautiful after adding a curve, but the others still lacked something.

I think the general color rendition sucks. I made a comparision with files of my 5D when ARC 4 came out: In the background of a setting were some unimportant things, out of focus. In the file processed with C1pro everything had a pale greyish tint, undistiguishable from each other, unattractive. When I processed the same raw file with ACR 4 colors showed up: what formerly was just one greyish mud turned out to be an intensivly blue window grill in front of a yellow wall. I don´t talk about any oversaturated effects but there were just colors that weren`t there with C1pro, with a very natural appearance. I think the H3D and Flexcolor have the same problem. OK, it is better than a 5D with C1pro, but the colors don´t stand out as clearly as, lets say a Leaf back, a simple Nikon (hello D70), or my 5D in ACR 4.

I hope that Hasselblad will invest a bit of development here. My own experience with my 5D shows that improved software can get very different results from the same hardware.

Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just coming from flexcolor to capture one, for me there is no difference in how good I get the file to look in the end, the C1 image is just much more "pre-baked" when initially shown in the software. I suspect this may be the case with the Leaf software as well (although many of the manufacturers say their software don't add anything to the RAW data...)

I acutally like the Flex workflow better than the Capture one when it comes to initial settings, i'd much rather add than subtract in my editing...

-axel

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']PS: (After getting to know C1 better, I might change around on this, but my first impression is that the difference between the two programs is negible, just the approach is radically different.)[/span]

[Bernd B.]

Perhaps you should invest some time in getting to know the working of flexcolor before making statements that the H3 colors are bad. Thousends of photographers are using them with great succes. As you said, you didn't use the gray card or other gray balancing device, probably your color settings are also not as intended by hasselblad... and so on.
I do absolutely not want to attack you are anybody else but words spread very fast on the net and giving false information helps no one.
If you ask your rep. forr some help or go to the" flexframe group" on Yahoo for info and i am sure you will be very pleased with the colors of the H3d.
I am and i also used to use Phase and leaf in the recent past.
Good luck and i am sure that with some help your colors will come out perfect.
greetz from belgium.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153180\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe I didn´t say it: I used a white balance card on my latest test today.

There were also thousands of photographers who said a Canon and C1pro is the best thing in the world. I was not among them. After half a day I knew it was not what I needed. I tried it for the next 15 months just because nothing else was available and it didn´t get better. When ACR 4 came out I immediately knew it was exactly what I always wanted. Incredible combination ARC 4 / Lightroom and a 5D.

What I´m trying to say is: I can adjust a lot in Flexcolor. But it seems that the general color fidelity and "vibrance" is limited. I can lift the contrast, the saturation, whatever you want, the images start to look strange but they never look as "abundant" (Dustbaks word) as some others (again: my Valeo) do. But I think the limitations don`t come from the hardware.

Best,

Bernd

[Weldon Brewster]

Couple of things:

Any tool takes a while to learn how to use properly.  Flexcolor took me months before I had it all dialed in.  Give it a chance.

Try (-5) red in the color correction window as a starting place.  You may need more or less.

You may need to preform a custom white balance, this is not the same as a grey balance (the eyedropper to the upper right of the white balance tab.)  CWB is in the exposure window (the icon to the LEFT of the white balance tab.

Do some tests with a grey card to get your daylight balance preset.  This is helpful if you have to shoot something quick without doing a proper grey balance.  My starting place (everyone is different) is 4600, -3.

Make sure reproduction mode is unchecked, this will flatten out your image

Peace,
Weldon

[Bernd B.]

Thanks for your helpful hints. Of course I´ll go on and try. What else should I do?

In a German forum I read from a contributor to "Viktor"-Magazine that the raw-engine for Phocus is completely re-written, but based on the natural color solution. I have some hopes in that.

Bernd

[pprdigital]

Thanks for your helpful hints. Of course I´ll go on and try. What else should I do?

In a German forum I read from a contributor to "Viktor"-Magazine that the raw-engine for Phocus is completely re-written, but based on the natural color solution. I have some hopes in that.

Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernd:

What kind of white balance card did you use?

Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[Bernd B.]

Bernd:

What kind of white balance card did you use?

Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A small one, 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 inches, was in the kit with my valeo. Not good?

There was an OPcard 101 in the kit with my H3D. Better?

Thanks,

Bernd

[Nick-T]

A small one, 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 inches, was in the kit with my valeo. Not good?

There was an OPcard 101 in the kit with my H3D. Better?

Thanks,

Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153387\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure why 'blad ship those QP cards they metamerise terribly.. I've always had good results with the macbeth.

Nick-T

[pprdigital]

A small one, 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 inches, was in the kit with my valeo. Not good?

There was an OPcard 101 in the kit with my H3D. Better?

Thanks,

Bernd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153387\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that the small grey card that is included with Leaf backs produces the best results particularly with Leaf backs.

Regardless, I believe which grey card is being used is a critical component. Variances in grey cards can render cooler or warmer tones with captures. I don't mean from batch to batch, I mean fom type to type. MacBeth 24 Patch Color Checker vs OP Card, etc.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

[yaya]

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that the small grey card that is included with Leaf backs produces the best results particularly with Leaf backs.

Regardless, I believe which grey card is being used is a critical component. Variances in grey cards can render cooler or warmer tones with captures. I don't mean from batch to batch, I mean fom type to type. MacBeth 24 Patch Color Checker vs OP Card, etc.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

our card is similar to the 3rd patch from the Left on the 24 patch colour checker.

Yair