Alpa and a digital back..?

[meurten]

Hello.
I am pretty new on this forum. ( even posted it in the wrong forum ) And am interested (and reading) a lot about digital backs.
I want to buy an Alpa SWA with 35 and 47mm lens, but for the moment can't choose between two digital backs, the Sinar eMotion54 and the Aptus22.
Some of the differencess are obvious ( specifications from the websites), others maybe not( the user experience soem people on this forum have)
It's the same question concerning the software.
I'm used to working with lightroom, but how do these backs and their images work when imported in Lightroom?
I rented an Aptus 75 (22 was unavailable) with a Cambo wide DS, for a test, works perfect during the day of shooting ( interior and architecture), but handling the pictures afterwards is a slow proces in Lightroom.
But there are some features which I (seem to ) be missing in LC11.
I am wondering how & what the workflow of some of you is, concerning the sinar and the aptus.
from DB to finish.
And can some of you share their experience with these two backs.
Maybe there is someone who has experience with both?
The ruggedness, the handling, how fast or slow. The combination with Alpa ( there seem to be a lot of Alpa users with Leaf, why is that?)
The hightlight recovery and how the Brumbear tool works with the channels, does LC11 treat the highlights the same way?
I will use it mainly for interior-architecture, landscape & portrait (this with my trusted old hassy)
I regard both backs as high quality & still want to test the Sinar. So it would also be nice to know what points to focus on when testing? What to look for.

Thanks
Maarten.

[Morgan_Moore]

On the other board you wrote..

The screen of the aptus is fine, but I dislike the battery being sticking out under the back,and it's hard to tell how importent that is. Is the screen of the 54lv better now that it has LV?
And do you have any idea how sturdy the sinar is buils in comparison with the Leaf.
The changeable mount may be a plus, considering the Hy6 in the future. But for now it will be Hassy and Alpa.
And software... it's not my hobby to dig in to them especially as it always takes a while to get the best out of it, which is impossible when testing.

Maarten [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The screen of the 54LV is sh*t

but they all are I thnk the A22 is just sh*t bigger

The 54LV It is brighter than the E22 to be fair

It is hard to check sharpness because they always look 'out' on the screen on the back

Live view is tethered only on the 54LV

I had an E22 (same build as the 54LV) and although the buttons seem a bit wobbly the build I think is rock solid as is the internals - no probs with either back the E22 or the 54LV

I think the internal memory and user swappable mount make the the 54LV the winner over an A22

Both of these backs I think were 25ISO in the early firmwares, thier current sweetspot is 50-100, 200 at a push and 400 is a joke unlike later generation P30s,P45,75LVs etc

In terms of image quality I think they will yield identical results oncee you have a handle on the respective sofwares

S

[froesner]

Hello.
I am pretty new on this forum. ( even posted it in the wrong forum ) And am interested (and reading) a lot about digital backs.
I want to buy an Alpa SWA with 35 and 47mm lens, but for the moment can't choose between two digital backs, the Sinar eMotion54 and the Aptus22.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Marten

I am about to sell an Alpa XY / 35mm / Aptus 22 - if you are interested drop me an email under froesner@mac.com

Frank

[meurten]

Hi frank.

Sounds interesting.
I just dropped you an email on your mac account.

Maarten

[meurten]

Hi morgan, thanks for the info.

It will probably take some getting used to checking the sharpness on the screen.
As some people said here on the forum I will get a laser distance meter, to at least not have to guess what distance it is, and hope ( but with Alpa Quality it should be no problem) that the lenses are correct.
Why is it that high iso's are problem for backs?
I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.
The same topic, I shoot a lot of night scenes, how do you handle that with a sinar?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?

maarten

[Graham Mitchell]

The same topic, I shoot a lot of night scenes, how do you handle that with a sinar?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Black reference files are handled automatically by the Sinarbacks.

[Prakash Patel]

I will use it mainly for interior-architecture, landscape & portrait (this with my trusted old hassy)
I regard both backs as high quality & still want to test the Sinar. So it would also be nice to know what points to focus on when testing? What to look for.

Thanks
Maarten.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

I was recently using the Sinar e75 along with an Leaf A22.....shooting it on an architectural job
to look at the files  side by side. The Brumbaer workflow is much more efficient than the LC11 with regard to applying the white reference /gain files........It has been discussed here before by RainerV
Does not matter which back you shoot; wide angle shooting workflow= shoot a whitreference/gain file/LCC file. Using the backs' proprietary software apply this reference file to the image data to correct optical physics anomalies caused by combination of the ccd/lens/light sources.

Brumbaer workflow:You simply identify the white reference files and the software/computer automatically applies the reference files to the image data files removing all optical anamolies.
Very quick and easy workflow that does not involve much of my time. Then you simply drop the files into the  Brumbaer DNG converter

LC11 workflow: you pair the gain file with all the image file manually for each camera position.....you have be in front of the computer during this entire process: for 3-5 views no big deal, 10-20 views is a much longer time commitment..............I prefer not to be involved with the computer during this robotic task.

When shooting tethered, does anyone know if the upcoming Sinar eXposure software will allow you to review  files with the white reference files applied to the image data files?

The selection of the back as well the choice of software/workflow can be pretty specific to the subject you shoot. If you are primarily an architectural shooter, I would want to test these backs together so you can spot the differences quickly. I would suggest shooting an interior with mixed light sources and comparing deep shadow details (0-20 in the info pallete) as well as the highlight details (230-255), stick with a raw developer of your choice......you are simply trying to establish
the difference between the sensors before having to resort to software and photoshop jockery techniques.  Don't loose sight of the quality of the captured file as well as the workflow to produce it  into a photograph. I agree with the comments about the sh*t LCD's, but remember they are simply histograms with poor image representations, its the captured file that matters more. If you
are a fashion or a studio shooter your selection criteria would be completely different, the quality LCD may matter more than the native file capture............since you can more easily control the lighting to address shadow and highlight information.

[Morgan_Moore]

Why is it that high iso's are problem for backs?

I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

These backs are handling high ISOs better with new releases - they used to be 25ISO on this generation of chip now they are 100/200

I did some 2second exposures the other day - cathedal at dusk - the very clean files with the 54LV

But for longer exposures than that and movements and Black/white references - I dont really know - I shoot lifestyle - so I will have to refer you to other posters

S

[ericstaud]

Maarten,

In my experience with the Aptus 22, and I believe in Rainer's experience with the eMotion 22, there is very little in the way of color casts with that 22MP Dalsa sensor.  If you can test the backs you're interested in with the Alpa lenses and shoot the white plexi for reference you may find that you don't need to use the Brumbaer or the Custom Gain software for the purpose of removing these defects.  I believe with the aptus22 that the IR filter is strong enough to cause a red shift in a image if you are doing large shifts with the 35 or 47.  This color shift would correspond to the falloff of the lens and would go from cyan to red.

The 33MP dalsa sensors are where you run into issues with color uniformity and with centerfold (These colors shift green and magenta).  You would be spoiled by the Leaf Aptus 22's ability to come straight out of the camera and go directly into ACR, Lightroom, etc.. without correction in the Gain adjuster, using Brumbaer's software, or using Phase One's LCC correction.  I think with the Sinar back you would use Brumbaer's converter just to make DNG's, not to correct color casts on the 22MP chip.

Why is Phase one not a consideration?  Just curious.  I have a P45+ because I felt the most comfortable with their software in different working environments (shooting tethered, to card, with clients surrounding the monitor, processing files on the spot with all the corrections in place, being able to apply the LCC corrections to incoming tethered captures automatically).  I don't like having to wake up the Phase back before every shot.  I don't like their customer service.  The software won me over though.

You can do some night photography with the Dalsa sensor, but at 25 or 50 asa and a 32 second exposure limit you have some potentially serious limitations.  I think for many commercial shooters it is not much of a problem because the subjects are usually lit up (like building exteriors or city scapes), but some of your work looks like longer exposures than that.

It will be important in your testing to see first hand the application of the color cast corrections.  You should experience this both when tethered and when downloading from card.  Think about having to do this tethered in a studio with a client next to you and having to process the files right there for a last minute job.  Also think about coming home with 300 captures and 30 white reference files to apply to 30 different setups.  You will need to communicate with the dealers or reps before your meetings about your needs.  I met with two dealers and 3 reps when deciding on backs, not one of them could show the Brumbaer, LCC, or Custom Gain workflow.

The quality of images from these backs are all great.  Dealing with the software workflow in the work you need to do today and for the work you may be doing in the future will have a big impact on your day to day happiness with the product.  

Don't buy anything if some crucial feature you need to make it work for you is promised for a future software or firmware release.  It has to all work the day you pick it up.

I did not buy the eMotion 75  11 months ago because the color casts could not be corrected in tethered shooting.  The files that had color casts removed by Brumbaer's software were now DNG files and could no longer be opened or processed by the Sinar capture software ( so you were off to Adobe Camera Raw).  I think this is different with Sinar today, but it is just an example of the complications in figuring out how all this stuff works (or doesn't work) for you.

[DominiqueMarcWehrli]

Maarten

As another user of the Sinar eMotion 54LV i would like to post a comment. I also do architecture and interiors. I have only testes a phase one back with a dealer, so I think Eric has a better knowledge about this back. One thing I find very tempting is the long exposure capabilities of the phase one product because with the sinar-backs (54LV) there is still a limit at 30 seconds - and these images can be very noisy.
What I really like is the workflow of the sinar backs. I use the brumbaer tools too. Working to cf-card is very fast and works well - I still haven't found a solution for fast tethered working. May be the new software...
With the Brumbaer dng converter you can batch process all the files including white reference-files to get perfectly corrected dngs to work with. During capture i switch my back to compressed mode for the white reference shots widt an expodisc, so I can identify all the white references by file size and put them in one folder and the image files in another folder. All I have to do is to run the white reference folder through emotionDNG (to create white correction files), then select the white reference and the image folder and put them trough brumbaers emotion dng to make the final corrections.
So the work is done in a few seconds and the you have great dngs to work width. I think for someone who works mobile, the sinar workflow is great (I still can not understand that a freeware programmer is needed to make a 20000$ piece of equipment a really great solution...)

Regards
Dominique

[thsinar]

hi Dominique,

There exists a little Brumbaer tool called "eMotion Teth", which allows tethered shooting and saving the RAWs into a folder before processing it. It is not officially released by Stefan Hess but it works, with a preview window, nevertheless you can try it if you want to: send me your email contact and I shall forward it to you if interested.

Best regards,
Thierry

I still haven't found a solution for fast tethered working. Dominique
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[DominiqueMarcWehrli]

Thierry

I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.

Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?

Regards
Dominique

[thsinar]

Dominique,

I agree, that's why it has not been released. It has been written for a shooting with a Sinarback Multishot, writing a BR file with each image and thus being a bit slow. Just wanted to mention it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry

I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.

Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?

Regards
Dominique
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Jeffreytotaro]

Maarten:

You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+.  Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds.  

Workflow is certainly a consideration.  While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.

Just my 2 cents.

Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)

Thinking of switching to Alpa.

[rethmeier]

Being an eMotion-75LV user,I do have to agree that it would be handy to be able to have a longer exposure time than 32 seconds.
However in my 35 year career as an interior and exterior shooter,I have never done a exposure
longer than 32 seconds.( With medium format)

I did do longer exposures on 4x5 with a heavy filter pack and an F stop of 22.

Nowadays with digital an F stop of 11 is maximum and I rarely use filters anymore.

My other reason to go with Sinar was the Hy6.

With Phase this option didn't exist.

Still you should test yourself.

[Murray Fredericks]

I own the Sinar 75LV and was also hesitant to purchase a kit that was limited to a max exposure of 32sec as my work is also interiors and architecture.

The reality is that at f/11 I have had little problem and the extended dynamic range means I can pull way more out of the shadows than I used to on film and dslr.

The tipping point between systems for me was Brumbaer and its highlight recovery. There is now detail into high whites - high contrats spots for example, that is controllable and useable, while being able to expose 'normally' for the rest of the scene.

The dynamic range is HUGE...and that helps my shooting in a very positive way.

Murray

[meurten]

Hi everyone, great and helpfull reply's !

32 seconds of exposure isn't much that is true, and sometimes it is to little.
Might there be a way around that, like double exposures?

The phase for the moment isn't an option because of the price, the P25 is a lot more expensive than either Sinar or Leaf.  And I do want that sensor size, the sensors of the other Phase ones are to small. The software however is definitly really nice ( although I hated all the little confusing folders), especially the new version looks good.
I still want to look at a refurbished P25 & what such a back would cost.

You would be spoiled by the Leaf Aptus 22's ability to come straight out of the camera and go directly into ACR, Lightroom, etc.. without correction in the Gain adjuster, using Brumbaer's software, or using Phase One's LCC correction.

Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?

I'm not used to thethered shooting ( did it with nikon a few times) but I agree that it's something to consider.
And it is something that has to be tested to really understand what it does, how much time it takes, how many steps have to be taken and how un-mobile I will be on location.

I also like the fact that the leaf distributor is really near my  studio. Sinar on the other hand is on the other side of the country.

And everybody is very positive about Brumbear! Sounds interesting and good, but as dominic says

(I still can not understand that a freeware programmer is needed to make a 20000$ piece of equipment a really great solution...)

It makes me wonder what they have in store for the future, do they wait for the Hy6 global introdiction to make a leap in software or why haven't they incorporated it yet in their own software?

When you've run Brumbears software and the files are DNG, can you process them further in different converters, say Lightroom and C1, or is the Sinar Software still the best choice after that?
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?

It's a tough process...thanks fot the tips



Maarten

[thsinar]

Dear Maarten,

I am not here to answer for making your decide on one specific product, but because I know the Brumbaer tools for the excellent DNG's  produced by it and you should anyway test it by yourself. What I can tell you:

- YES, the DNGs produced can be opened/processed in any DNG compatible application like LR, ACR, Raw Developer, etc ... There is no need anymore and at this DNG stage to go back to the Sinar CS capture application.

- For having done very specific tests with the Brumbaer DNG Converter last week I can tell you that the dynamic range is really HUGE (like stated by Murray): according to my tests the full dynamic range of the sensor is used (11 f-stops), or if not then really very close to these 11 stops. For my knowledge and experience (I have tested it as well), all other capture softwares from any brand of backs DO "clip" the highlights, thus it is impossible THEREAFTER to recover something in the highlights, when it is not there and clipped already. That's the real important point for a recovery to be effective. Brumbaer does NOT clip any information in the highlights.

Best regards,
Thierry

When you've run Brumbears software and the files are DNG, can you process them further in different converters, say Lightroom and C1, or is the Sinar Software still the best choice after that?
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?

Maarten
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Murray Fredericks]

Brumbaer makes a conversion from the raw file to DNG.

DNG then goes (in my workflow) to Lightroom...

M

[rainer_v]

my opinion is, that the different backs have different "sweet" spots, together with their software. i think the emotion backs together with brumbaer are maybe the best  solution for architecture work at the moment. this comes as a result as how brumbaer tools was designed because it was designed specially for the needs of architecture "on location" work. the workflow was created very specific, because it was made in very closed co-operation together with an  architecture photographer who is often posting here in LL ( me ...... ) and for the needs of this kind of work. it  was made in "realtime" phoning and tweacking the programm nearly every day, meanwhile shooting on location over a period of 6 months. . i think this way of creating a software workflos might be 100% unique,- but it worked and when the shooting was finished the software also raeched its finally level, although still some tweacking was made, mainly to improve image quality further and to introduce the one or the other detail. .... as one of the side aspects it changed completely my point of view how software can be written. i mean stefan was so fast!!!!! i reported some bug or asked for some changes and 1, 2 or 3 days later he had sent me. in this way 40 or 50 versions of brumbaer version were writte nin six months. funny to see the "big" fishes taken months or years for little changes, if we ask them to do them. or the companies prefer to ignore this wishes totally. nice way to create an own piece of sw, and even nicer if the quality is finally class leading,- which is the case i.m.o. with the brumbaer tools.
goal was to reach flawless image quality but also a logic workflow which could work as automatic as possible.
since it is nessesary to shoot white files with all actual backs, it is an big factor how easy these white files can be processed. i personnaly do not have much fun at night in the hotel to process 20, 30,40,50,60 files and to adjust each motif manually one after the other,- which means finally i am busy 2 or 3 hours more just to have "clean" and colorshift-free dng files on my harddrive.  brumbaer allows now to automatize this prozess as far as possible and the whole dng- conversion stuff is done meanwhile i am drinking coffee. this can save many many hours on location.
btw. is the dng file quality state of the art and in some aspects innovative in MF ( highlight recovery, layering vignetting, on location color calibration ).

about 30 seconds limit of the dalsa sensor: i dont think its a problem, at least not for purposes which are not "full-moon-shots" ( for which i would use a canon in any case, allthough i listened that the PO backs handle ten minutes exposures very good too ).
but i think too that this is the onliest advantage kodak sensors might have over the dalsas,- regarding architecture photography where lo iso never is a problem.

i use mainly rodenstock HR lenses. this lenses can be used at full aperture without visible image sharpness degradation and without center filter. this are many stops which you gain in that way,- compared to 4x5" with centerfilter at f11. also with schneider lenses its not a problem to work with f8 or f11 without centerfilter.
two images about darkness and about dynamic range ( this was REALLY dark ) :

[attachment=3718:attachment]


[attachment=3719:attachment]