Post Processing CRT vs LCD

[paulbk]

Subject Hardware/Software:
CRT = 21 inch, Mitsubishi Diamond Pro, Model 2060u (calibrated and profiled)
LCD = NEC LCD 2090UXi, using the DVI digital input (calibrated and profiled)
ColorVision Spyder2Pro calibration hardware and software
OS = Windows XP

I’m in transition from CRTs to LCDs. I’ve used two high quality CRTs (side-by-side) for the last five years. Now in transition to two NEC LCDs. While I have one CRT and one LCD the difference is glairing. Images processed with CRT look slightly “over cooked” on the LCD. And images processed on the LCD look flat on the CRT. The difference is more than subtle to an experienced eye.

LCD Change Adjustments from “as found” factory settings:
1) backed off LCD screen sharpening from 26.1 -to- 11.9
2) backed off LCD brightness from 100% -to- 69.3%

Even with these adjustments, under side-by-side comparison the same files looks flat on the CRT and wow vivid on the LCD (especially super wonderful shadow detail). I love the look. BUT.......... now do we have to consider monitor type when post processing an image for web view?

Also, re: LCD, files viewed at less than 1:1 look stair-steppy and crunchy. Is this normal? This problem not so apparent on CRT.

Interested to hear what others think. Did you change factory setting...
Brightness?
Sharpness?
Other setting?
Thoughts / comments welcome.

p

[Roberto Chaves]

Hi,

A CRT is much softer than an LCD which might explain some of the things you are noticing regarding sharpening and zoom levels.
If you are viewing a file in Photoshop make sure you view it at an even zoom level, that is 100%, 50%, 25% etc.
If you view the file at say 66,7% (zoomed out one step from 100%) it will look very pixelated. This is because photoshop doesn't interpolate the picture when zooming, meaning it will just skip every third pixel.
If your CRT screen was very soft (could be that you where running the graphics card in a resolution it could not handle well, or the DAC on your graphics card wasn't very good at the resolution) this might not be as visible. Although I think you should have been able to notice this if your screen wasn't *really* soft.
Anyway you can test this very easily.

Then we have the color issue. This is difficult to tell without seeing what you are describing. But it could be as simple as the fact that your CRT is getting old and doesn't have enough punch anymore.

[sojournerphoto]

I work with a Dell LCD display and, despite calibration, it showed far too much shadow detail until I turned the brightness down. I now work at between 30 and 35% compared to the default of 75% and after calibration it's much better. It remains pretty 'wow', though now I get a good match to prints.

Mike

[paulbk]

Thanks Mike. That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Crank back the brightness seems to be the only cure for huge disappointment in the print. I'm now back to 69.3%.

LCDs are great. Borderline surreal even. But *no print* can compete with the wow factor of a NEC LCD at 100% brightness (factory default).

Any comments on screen Sharpness adjustment?

p

I work with a Dell LCD display and, despite calibration, it showed far too much shadow detail until I turned the brightness down. I now work at between 30 and 35% compared to the default of 75% and after calibration it's much better. It remains pretty 'wow', though now I get a good match to prints.

Mike
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[Roberto Chaves]

Thanks Mike. That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Crank back the brightness seems to be the only cure for huge disappointment in the print. I'm now back to 69.3%.

LCDs are great. Borderline surreal even. But *no print* can compete with the wow factor of a NEC LCD at 100% brightness (factory default).

Any comments on screen Sharpness adjustment?

p
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you have calibrated and profiled correctly the screen brightness should not be above 150 cd/m2, or did you run it at much higher brightness?

Regarding sharpness, there is none to be made on a LCD if you are using a digital signal through DVI. If you have a sharpness setting, then it means you are running an anolog signal (which you shouldn't do).

/R

[sojournerphoto]

Thanks Mike. That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Crank back the brightness seems to be the only cure for huge disappointment in the print. I'm now back to 69.3%.

LCDs are great. Borderline surreal even. But *no print* can compete with the wow factor of a NEC LCD at 100% brightness (factory default).

Any comments on screen Sharpness adjustment?

p
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I understand the wow factor - a really bright and sharp screen with the shadow detail is quite something. However, good prints on decent paper do offer some extras:) I have a 54 by 14 panorama of the paps of jura waiting for a client at home and it keeps growing on me just for the richness and texture. The micro detail is much better than you get on a little low res screen image. In fact, my wife has demanded that I print a big on for us, which is fine until I have to buy the museum glass to frame it!

Mike

[paulbk]

Roberto,
You answer questions not asked. Worse, you answer them wrong. The NEC 2090UXi using DVI input digital mode does have screen sharpness adjustment. Factory default is 26.1. I backed off to 11.9. It works fine.

If you have calibrated and profiled correctly the screen brightness should not be above 150 cd/m2, or did you run it at much higher brightness?

Regarding sharpness, there is none to be made on a LCD if you are using a digital signal through DVI. If you have a sharpness setting, then it means you are running an anolog signal (which you shouldn't do).

/R
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[Roberto Chaves]

Roberto,
You answer questions not asked. Worse, you answer them wrong. The NEC 2090UXi using DVI input digital mode does have screen sharpness adjustment. Factory default is 26.1. I backed off to 11.9. It works fine.
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Paul, somehow I get the feeling that I have offended you when in fact I've just tried to help. I will try to explain a bit more and hope you appreciate that I am trying to help and share my knowledge.

I haven't used the NEC 2090UXi, but I've used NEC 2190 Spectraview which doesn't have this option when running a pure digital signal as far as I can recollect.
None of my Eizo screens have this, nor any of the cheap non-graphics monitors I've tried from any manufacturer.

There is no logic in having a sharpening setting for a digital signal, it makes no sense and there is absolutely no reason to have such a setting. Let me explain why, in case you didn't know.

The point of running a digital signal through DVI (one can run analog through DVI-I) is to avoid the unnecessary D/A (graphics card) and the A/D (monitor) conversion when sending a signal from the computer (that is digital to begin with) to the monitor.

If you run an analog signal through an DVI-I cable then all the monitors I've tried will offer a sharpness setting. This option is there to compensate for possible bad quality in the D/A convert on the graphics card or for a bad A/D conversion in the monitor.
Even in the case one runs analog from the computer to the monitor it will always be better to have good quality D/A and A/D conversion to avoid sharpening which will just cause other artifacts.

Could you please double check that you are indeed running a digital signal?

[paulbk]

re: NEC 2090UXi

If I open the On Screen Menu (OSM):
under TOOLS, I see the following:
          Sharpness = 11.9% (as adjusted by me, default = 26%)

under INFORMATION, I see the following:
          DVI-D  1600 x 1200
          H = 75.3 kHz,  V = 60.3 Hz
          SYNC.    DIGITAL

Paul, somehow I get the feeling that I have offended you when in fact I've just tried to help. I will try to explain a bit more and hope you appreciate that I am trying to help and share my knowledge.

I haven't used the NEC 2090UXi, but I've used NEC 2190 Spectraview which doesn't have this option when running a pure digital signal as far as I can recollect.
None of my Eizo screens have this, nor any of the cheap non-graphics monitors I've tried from any manufacturer.

There is no logic in having a sharpening setting for a digital signal, it makes no sense and there is absolutely no reason to have such a setting. Let me explain why, in case you didn't know.

The point of running a digital signal through DVI (one can run analog through DVI-I) is to avoid the unnecessary D/A (graphics card) and the A/D (monitor) conversion when sending a signal from the computer (that is digital to begin with) to the monitor.

If you run an analog signal through an DVI-I cable then all the monitors I've tried will offer a sharpness setting. This option is there to compensate for possible bad quality in the D/A convert on the graphics card or for a bad A/D conversion in the monitor.
Even in the case one runs analog from the computer to the monitor it will always be better to have good quality D/A and A/D conversion to avoid sharpening which will just cause other artifacts.

Could you please double check that you are indeed running a digital signal?
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[Rhossydd]

I haven't used the NEC 2090UXi, but I've used NEC 2190 Spectraview which doesn't have this option when running a pure digital signal as far as I can recollect.

Maybe your recollection is incorrect then.
I'm running a pair of NECs here, a  Spectraview 1980 and it's lesser sibling the 1980sxi and both have sharpness controls and both are running DVI digital inputs.

[Roberto Chaves]

Maybe your recollection is incorrect then.
I'm running a pair of NECs here, a  Spectraview 1980 and it's lesser sibling the 1980sxi and both have sharpness controls and both are running DVI digital inputs.
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Paul and Rhossyd, you are right, my recollection was incorrect.
The NEC screen do in fact have a sharpness setting for a digital signal, which is really stupid imho.
This is unfortunately very common in most TV LCD/Plasma screens and projectors. And many DVD movies do also apply to much sharpening which just creates ugly halos and false impression of sharpness which in fact just removes real detail in the picture.

It's annoying that a professional screen should have such stupid options (probably because consumers used to analog signals would expect to have these settings).

I search for the documentation for the monitor you have and it doesn't even say what sharpness setting to use if you wish to not have any sharpening or softening at all.
The logical would be that a setting of zero would apply no sharpening, however they probably add softening at a certain level.

I would make a test image in photoshop with fine line patterns and then step through the different sharpness setting in the monitor and watch at what setting it the halos disappear.

[Roberto Chaves]

For anyone interested:

Here is a link that shows some of the artifacts that are caused by the fake sharpening of digital signals which don't need any sharpening.

http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm


Here I found a good test pattern that you can use to calibrate this "sharpness" setting on your display.

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/#sharpness


Good luck!

[paulbk]

R,
According to your test image, NEC Sharpness setting of 26% (factory default) is near "neutral." As defined in your reference page: "If the sharpness setting is correct (i.e., neutral), all blocks in the image below should blend in when you look at the screen from a distance or while squinting your eyes."

Zero Sharpness setting is too soft. Does not reflect the sharpness of the print. And in the end, you want the screen to match the print as close as possible.

After design and manufacture of millions of high quality monitors, maybe NEC knows what they are doing. I'm not surprised. (that's why I own four) But you seem to be.

And the idea that sharpening takes its toll and leaves artifacts is not news around here. Thanks for all your help Roberto.

For anyone interested:

Here is a link that shows some of the artifacts that are caused by the fake sharpening of digital signals which don't need any sharpening.

http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm
Here I found a good test pattern that you can use to calibrate this "sharpness" setting on your display.

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/#sharpness
Good luck!
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