Fondled, er, I mean *Handled* the Leaf AFi today

[bradleygibson]

I got a call from my dealer this morning lettng me know that the Leaf AFi was in town for the day...

Needless to say, I made some quick adjustments to my schedule to get some time and play with the new camera.

Dan, the Leaf rep and Paul were very kind to let me play with it for over 2 hours, and I took it on a little stroll around the block as well.

My initial thoughts are that it is a very nice camera.  Well built, a little largish, but not bad at all for a 6x6, and lighter than I expected (I'm getting used to the Hassy V).  I liked the handle, and the way the camera handled in general.  It took me about a minute and a half to figure out how to use the camera, so I found it to be very intuitive.

With the Leaf system the battery in the handle can power both the camera and the back, or you can ALSO power the back with its own battery.  Both batteries are the same.

I consider the AF to be the weak point of the camera.  It has a single, centered AF point, and in EV 7 or 8 lighting, simply stalled (not hunted, just didn't respond) on a few occasions.  Releasing the shutter button and re-pressing halfway did nothing.  Moving to a new, contrastier subject (original target was a human face) "woke up" the AF, and then moving back to the face allowed the AF to lock in.  On most attepts the AF was slow but was reasonably sure and able to lock.  It was two or three attempts out of many dozens (in room lighting on an overcast day) where the AF failed to respond.

When it did lock, it was extremely accurate.  Focusing on the tip of the nose rendered the tip of the nose in focus, not the eyes, not something else.  Excellent performance.

I've not handled many other AF-capable MF systems, but in comparison to an H2, I would say that both were somewhat noisy, the AFi was quicker when on the move, but the H2 seemed a bit more sure of itself (never had the 'refusals' with the H2 that I had with the AFi, for example).  Overall, I certainly didn't expect to be able to mistake it for a Canon AF system, but I had hoped for a bit more AF performance.

I've asked a number of questions about aperture blades and bokeh, so for any of you interested, the AFD PQS 2.8/80 HFT has 5 aperture blades, which are slightly rounded.  The aperture is definitely pentagonal (rather than circular), but the bokeh rendered to around f/4 is almost perfectly circlular.  Once beyond f/4 and by about f/6.3 specular highlight had a distinctly pentagonal shape.  In all cases the blur was gentle, even and smooth.  All in all a very nice result.  It would be nicer to see rounded blades, a la Nikon or some of the more recent Canon lenses.  Not sure why a $3000 prime lens can't  have a circular aperture.

Build quality was excellent--it felt very solid--no creaky plasicky feeling like, say, a Dell laptop, it was all rubberized and felt very solid.  I squeezed it, poked it, prodded it, twisted it and nothing budged--not the back, not the lens, not the moveable handle, it felt very well built.

The waist-level finder was big, bright and a pleasure to work with.  I do prefer the Hassy V's spring loaded flip-up magnifier, but the AFi's manually flipped up magnifyer is a cinch to operate as well.

Comparing to the only other 6x6 camera option (the Hassy V), I think the AFi does a good job of holding its own for build quality, and provides many of the modern conveniences.

We hooked it up to a studio strobe as well and did a mini impromptu shooting session.  The frame rate of the Leaf 7 back was impressive (We didn't have to hook it to a strobe, but hey, why not?).  Subjectively, I'd judge it to be about 30-40% faster than my P45+.  I know what the specs say, but that is how it felt subjectively.

So in the end, I'm lukewarm about the AF performance and impressed with the rest of it (particularly the optics--crazy sharp, but without abandoning pleasing bokeh) I wonder if the glass truly is worth 1.5x-2x the price of other AF medium format glass...  I'll have to wrestle this one out for myself as well as I contemplate whether to move to AFi/Hy6, to H3DII, or to Phase's upcoming system.

It is nice to have choices!  

Thanks to Paul from Optechs and Dan from Leaf for the opportunity.

Best regards,
Brad

[bradleygibson]

With these low light levels, did the AF-redlight turn on? If not the camera was probably waiting for it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149957\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting thought...

I saw no red patterns being projected on the subject; and I was using the WLF, but I did not notice any glow from the red focus assist.

I don't know how sensitive the AF system in the Hy6 is, but I wouldn't have expected to see it come on in lighting at EV8...

Overall, nice camera--assuming you've worked on it in some way, shape or form, nice job, EPd!  

-Brad

[TechTalk]

Regarding focus controls, I like the placement of the auto-focus engage button above the focus mode switch. A handy way to switch between manual and auto focus modes.

The "trap focus" is also a nice addition.

[Morgan_Moore]

Regarding focus controls, I like the placement of the auto-focus engage button above the focus mode switch. A handy way to switch between manual and auto focus modes.

The "trap focus" is also a nice addition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont understand trap focus as a concept

what I am after is ranges like the switches on the side of long nikon canon glass

(although I dont like being told my range - I would prefer to set it my self)

OT my hassy af craps out at the light value were I cant see either or with horrible backlight - exactly when I need AF  

can you explain trap focus

S

[TechTalk]

I dont understand trap focus as a concept

what I am after is ranges like the switches on the side of long nikon canon glass

(although I dont like being told my range - I would prefer to set it my self)

OT my hassy af craps out at the light value were I cant see either or with horrible backlight - exactly when I need AF   

can you explain trap focus

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With trap focus, you preset the focus at a particular point (say the finish line of a race for example) and when the focus system detects an object at that point it triggers the shutter.

It's like the old wedding photographer's trick of focusing on a spot (like a church pew) and then just waiting for the bride to walk down the aisle to that point and taking the shot. Sports and wildlife photographers have used the same technique for years as well.

[Graham Mitchell]

I'm hoping that the AF issue is a bug which will be fixed in firmware. It sounds like something which could be.

[DesW]

With trap focus, you preset the focus at a particular point (say the finish line of a race for example) and when the focus system detects an object at that point it triggers the shutter.

It's like the old wedding photographer's trick of focusing on a spot (like a church pew) and then just waiting for the bride to walk down the aisle to that point and taking the shot. Sports and wildlife photographers have used the same technique for years as well.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ha!-- Trap Focus -hav'nt heard it called that before-My Nikonos RS U/W camera had that feature,real handy for those pesky Nemos!

Des

[a href=\"http://www.deswilliams.com/]http://www.deswilliams.com/[/url]

[uaiomex]

I've had this crazy idea for some time now:

Lenses with pentagonal or any non-circular diaphragm openings render better bokeh than those lenses with circular ones.

Once you get a circular opening, the lens tries to focus what's out of focus (as in a pinhole camera), then competing as a second image that looks like a reverb.

All my CF lenses have this funny looking out of focus highlights when they show, but the bokeh is unbelievably smooth.

Top of the line Canon lenses have circular openings but the bokehs are funny.

Well, as I said, just a crazy idea.

Eduardo

-----

I've asked a number of questions about aperture blades and bokeh, so for any of you interested, the AFD PQS 2.8/80 HFT has 5 aperture blades, which are slightly rounded.  The aperture is definitely pentagonal (rather than circular), but the bokeh rendered to around f/4 is almost perfectly circlular.  Once beyond f/4 and by about f/6.3 specular highlight had a distinctly pentagonal shape.  In all cases the blur was gentle, even and smooth.  All in all a very nice result.  It would be nicer to see rounded blades, a la Nikon or some of the more recent Canon lenses.  Not sure why a $3000 prime lens can't  have a circular aperture.

Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Dustbak]

Hmmmm....

I have Nikkor glass and Zeiss ZF glass all with circular diaphragms. All of them have really beautiful OOF rendition.

[mcfoto]

Hi
My feeling with the Hy6 is that it will be a very responsive camera that will be able to handle the speed of the new Aptus backs.

[godtfred]

It took me about a minute and a half to figure out how to use the camera, so I found it to be very intuitive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thought the same (tried it last week, they demoed it at a dealer in Oslo.)

With the Leaf system the battery in the handle can power both the camera and the back, or you can ALSO power the back with its own battery.  Both batteries are the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The algorithm/software for making the camera switch to the battery with the largest capacity was not finished on the camera I tried, but the representative stated the same for me, and it looks like a huge plus. In effect you can power it with only one battery in the grip for lightness, or two for really long batterylife.

...and in EV 7 or 8 lighting, simply stalled (not hunted, just didn't respond) on a few occasions. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly the same happened when I tried it, but it was in a dark studio, with little of the modeling light on and me pointing the AF at other things than the lit part of the room for testing. I felt it was comparable to AF on the hassy.

Build quality was excellent--it felt very solid--no creaky plasicky feeling like, say, a Dell laptop, it was all rubberized and felt very solid.  I squeezed it, poked it, prodded it, twisted it and nothing budged--not the back, not the lens, not the moveable handle, it felt very well built.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The build quality on the demo unit I tried was just ok. It felt sturdy enough, and better in my hands than the hassy (I like boxy cameras, wish the grip was removable). However the grip had locked up (mechanical failure), something I wrote down to an early example. Also some of the buttons where on the small side, but I expect it was just me not being used to the camera.

The WLF is a dream, bright and OK to manual focus. Not the "snap" you got from a Pentax 67 or rolleiflex, but still very good considering how much brighter the matte screen is.

The choice of 6x6 as the body format seems like a wise one to me, having the back in portrait orientation and still holding the camera "the right way" is a huge plus when doing portraits in studio.

Going away from having an aperture ring on the new lenses, seems like a loss. The left hand does'nt really do anything when shooting this camera on AF, and having some sort of EV lock, letting you control DOF with the aperture using your left hand, and the camera matching up shutter speed in manual mode, would be a plus in some lighting situations.

The back has fan cooling, I notice that Phase does not use this, as well as Hassy dropping the fan on its newest model. It probably means nothing, but still I like the idea of a "sealed" back.

The system seems quite new compared to the 6008. It is of course a continuation, but my guess is that early adopters will experience some of the same trouble that other systems have on the first production runs. Purely speculation on my part...

The Leaf rep was really nice, not talking any other brands down, not "overselling" the system. The dealer also sells Sinar, and there was a healthy attitude towards the pros and cons of each system. Thumbs up to Leaf for this!

-axel

[bradleygibson]

Hmmmm....

I have Nikkor glass and Zeiss ZF glass all with circular diaphragms. All of them have really beautiful OOF rendition.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ditto for me and many of my Canon's.

All my CF lenses have this funny looking out of focus highlights when they show, but the bokeh is unbelievably smooth.

Yes, my CF lenses are the same.  See [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18404&st=0&p=129779&#entry129779]here[/url] for a thread where I postsed samples of the "funny looking" out of focus highlights.

The AFD glass was a distinct improvement,  but as it was stopped down became less circular, causing a 'rough' feeling in the background blur.  I'd still give the edge to Nikkors and later Canons for bokeh quality, which, at these prices is disappointing...

[bradleygibson]

Hi
My feeling with the Hy6 is that it will be a very responsive camera that will be able to handle the speed of the new Aptus backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, it was.  My eyebrows definitely went up as we started pushing the pace.  Very impressive.

The Leaf rep was really nice, not talking any other brands down, not "overselling" the system.

Ditto.  With my Leaf rep.  It was my first interaction with someone from Leaf and it was a positive one.

It's nice to know we had similar experiences with the camera and that my AF foibles were not just an isolated issue.

As a nature photographer, I'd like to see those vents and fan go away too, in their back.

I can see why you felt some of the buttons were on the small side--that makes sense.  Why was the build quality "just OK" in your eyes?  Was it because the grip was broken or were there other things>

Best regards,
Brad

[yaya]

You can put the blame for the broken grip on me....

We were using the same unit in Milano on the weekend before David took it to Oslo.
David is an experienced fashion photographer which explains his approach when talking to customers.
The camera was still a prototype and not a production unit with many components that were still "custom hand made"...needless to say we were hammering it with 3 different models over 2 days and about 70 different hands poking it...

Brad the one you saw is already an early production unit hence the proper build quality.

The AF is still going through some firmware tweaks and I'm sure by the time it is released it'll all be sorted.

Yair

[godtfred]

Why was the build quality "just OK" in your eyes?  Was it because the grip was broken or were there other things>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In my eyes cameras are getting more and more parts made from plastic (buttons, sliders, etc.) I personally like leica M series and Hassy V series for the absence of plastic.

The most important bit was the "feel", it felt sturdy and like it could take a beating. But it did not feel like a tank (leica M, Hassy V.) So I guess on a scale from 1 (holga) to 10 (leica M) I'd place it on the low side of 8. (Maybe I was a bit harsh then, calling 8 "just ok".)

As Yaya pointed out, the unit I demoed was at an earlier stage than the one you looked at, some things might have changed along the way as far as fit/finish goes. So that 8 in my eyes might well become higher in the final production body. (Anyways, an 8 nowadays is pretty good, I would place the "feel" of my Hassy H3D somewhere in the high 6'es, too much plastic and the buttons are awful.)

You can put the blame for the broken grip on me....

We were using the same unit in Milano on the weekend before David took it to Oslo.
David is an experienced fashion photographer which explains his approach when talking to customers.
The camera was still a prototype and not a production unit with many components that were still "custom hand made"...needless to say we were hammering it with 3 different models over 2 days and about 70 different hands poking it...

Brad the one you saw is already an early production unit hence the proper build quality.

The AF is still going through some firmware tweaks and I'm sure by the time it is released it'll all be sorted.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I will Yaya  . As I said, I put it down to an early unit... Correcting the impression I got a bit, as I already said further up, the Afi really feels very good.

Again, thumbs up to David, he represents Leaf very well.

Oh, and by the way, the files are really good from the Leaf backs. I went back and got some from the dealer (forgot to when I was there,) and I put them throught the ringer, tweaking curves until they where near vertical. No sign of any centrefold issues, and no color cast issues. Easy to white balance (although I had to set over 6000 kelvin in ACR) rendering nice balanced results. No moire issues (I get quite a bit on my H3D) and that "film-like" quality that everyone talks about is there. The files where ever so slightly softer out of the box than my hassy files, but that could be resolution, focus accuracy, etc. etc.

-axel

[bradleygibson]

In my eyes cameras are getting more and more parts made from plastic (buttons, sliders, etc.) I personally like leica M series and Hassy V series for the absence of plastic.

The most important bit was the "feel", it felt sturdy and like it could take a beating. But it did not feel like a tank (leica M, Hassy V.) So I guess on a scale from 1 (holga) to 10 (leica M) I'd place it on the low side of 8. (Maybe I was a bit harsh then, calling 8 "just ok".)

As Yaya pointed out, the unit I demoed was at an earlier stage than the one you looked at, some things might have changed along the way as far as fit/finish goes. So that 8 in my eyes might well become higher in the final production body. (Anyways, an 8 nowadays is pretty good, I would place the "feel" of my Hassy H3D somewhere in the high 6'es, too much plastic and the buttons are awful.)
I will Yaya  . As I said, I put it down to an early unit... Correcting the impression I got a bit, as I already said further up, the Afi really feels very good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ah, I see.

Yes, I agree completely.  There were a few plastic buttons which weren't up to the same standard of build as the rest of the body, true.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd put it in the mid-8's as well overall, with the Hassy H just where you did as well.

The Hassy V doesn't have plastic (which is great), but it doesn't feel quite as tight as the Hy6 did (granted mine is what 10 or 15 years old!).  (But the rubberizing of the body is most welcome as I do a lot of winter nature photography.)

Good stuff.  Thanks, Yair for the update on the build quality and the AF system.

Best regards,
Brad

[godtfred]

with the Hassy H just where you did as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When on this comparison, I feel I need to mention Hassys latest offering. I checked out the latest Mk.II a couple of weeks back, paticularly looking at IR issues (the old IR filter had some green flare issues.)

I must say that the camera gets better and better. The back feels more solid, I think its a complete rework of the outer shell, as well as the addition of some cooling mechanism inside that probably adds weight compared to the fan in the previous model.

The back buttons are much better, but the ones on the camera are still lacking. However, the ability to manipulate menus on the back through the thumb and forefinger wheels are fantastic. Never has controlling an MFDB back been so intuitive and quick. Also the new button assignments (one specifically for ISO setting, etc.) makes it more usable and quicker.

The IR issue is gone, or more precicely, in my tests, where I photographed direcly into various light sources (halogen, tungsten, etc.) I could produce slight flare, but no haloes or green blobs like on the old back. The files showed some slight magenta in them compared to the files I shot on the mk.1 (did a side by side) but that was explained to me as a defect of the algorithm for processing the files with the new filter not being finished. I think the old backs can get the new IR filter installed for a fee if I remember correctly, if architecture and indoors is you game, then its a worthwhile upgrade.

The camera felt slightly more solid due to the better back, and the screen is the best I have seen on any MFDB yet. Also it was stable and did not give any error messages whatsoever, not tethered nor to card.

I'd give the new Hassy a 7 on the "how hefty is your camera scale", one point up from the previous model due to the better back. I think the times ahead are great, locked or not locked, MFDB is moving forward at a quick pace.

-axel

[mcfoto]

Hi
I just had a hands on experience with the Sinar Hy6. I am impressed, this is a great camera. It is light weight, big bright view finder so it was easy to focus the 120 manual lens. The camera I held did not have the prism finder on it, just the waist level one. I am planning on doing a shoot with it late this month with the Sinar 75 back. The shutter has a great sound. I found the AF on the 80 fast but I can't compare it to the others yet. I must say the lenses have a feel of quality to them. The camera fits very well in the hand. With the new S series backs coming this camera is going to be FAST. WELL DONE SINAR!

[rethmeier]

S-series backs?

[rethmeier]

Dennis,
are you referring to the Leaf AFI  S series backs?