Topic: Sharpening Workflow Questions (Read 6160 times)

Philip Weber · « **on:** October 31, 2007, 11:16:44 am »

Hi Everyone! I am new to digital photography, having started in August with a Pentax K10D for my birthday. Since then, it's been an amazing and fun journey on the learning curve.

While I have read many of the threads here (and thanks so much to all of you who contribute, your experience and input is invaluable) I haven't quite found my question answered so I'm starting my first post. OK, here goes...

Shooting in DNG, my software is LR 1.2, CS3, PK Sharpener and Noise Ninja.

My question is on sharpening workflow. Right now I'm importing into LR, doing all the great things it does, then exporting the images as "processed RAW" into a seperate file folder. Using Bridge, I bring the "processed RAW" images into CS3, and do any tweaking necessary (mainly curves and saturation as part of the soft proofing suggestions in the "from camera to print" video) then save as a TIFF for printing in a "Print Ready" folder and I'm good to go.

EXCEPT - When is the best time to sharpen and with what? Should I do the input sharpening with LR? As Jeff comments in the video "this requires some intelligence" and I'm not sure I understand the process/subject enough to get in right in LR and/or if LR is currently the best app to do capture sharpening.

OR...

Do I do capture and output sharpening in CS3 with PKS? If so when? Capture sharpening first during the softproof and output sharpening last, both at first or both at the very last? I tried unsharp mask and while that did help, it appeared PKS was a better option and as of right now...I'm done buying software...hey, I'd like to be out taking some pics once in a while!

Lastly, I import the TIFF back into LR for printing (HP B9180) and whould like to know if I need to use the LR print sharpening. Jeff says anything but the high setting isn't of much value but after capture/output sharpening with PKS, is it even needed?

One side question - Noise reduction first, before CS3 sharpening and tweaks, correct?

I very much appreciate any help anyone may have and thanks to Michael for such a great site and forum...it's been a HUGE help as I get started in photography.

Best regards,
Phil Weber

sniper · « **Reply #1 on:** October 31, 2007, 12:02:15 pm »

Heres my method, it works for me, but I'm sure other more experienced users will have different ways of working.
Lightroom for the basic raw conversion and the basic ajustments (or sometimes DXO) I take the LR sharpening to zero and use PKS in photoshop for the capture creative and output sharpen, then back into LR for the soft proof (if I'm going down that road) I tend to use noise ninja early on in the process if needed, usually as the PS plug-in version, but only as a last resort.

Puts tin hat on and waits for flak! Wayne

Schewe · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2007, 04:35:26 pm »

I'm suggesting (and doing this myself) that for most work, capture sharpening in Lightroom or Camera Raw 4.1 and above is fine and dandy...the only time I would suggest altering this is if you have a high ISO image where you need to do aggressive noise reduction. Noise reduction is best done before sharpening and while CR/LR's noise reduction is improved it's pretty obvious that it's not to the same level of something like Noiseware. In that case I would suggest processing out with little or no capture sharpening, run it through noise reduction and then process through PK Sharpener capture sharpen.

In either case above, I still take print images out to Photoshop for output sharpening even though I bring the print images back into Lightroom for printing. The trip to Photoshop for output sharpening and soft proofing may be mitigated in future versions of Lightroom but that's what I do now.

Philip Weber · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2007, 05:01:35 pm »

Quote

I'm suggesting (and doing this myself) that for most work, capture sharpening in Lightroom or Camera Raw 4.1 and above is fine and dandy...the only time I would suggest altering this is if you have a high ISO image where you need to do aggressive noise reduction. Noise reduction is best done before sharpening and while CR/LR's noise reduction is improved it's pretty obvious that it's not to the same level of something like Noiseware. In that case I would suggest processing out with little or no capture sharpening, run it through noise reduction and then process through PK Sharpener capture sharpen.

In either case above, I still take print images out to Photoshop for output sharpening even though I bring the print images back into Lightroom for printing. The trip to Photoshop for output sharpening and soft proofing may be mitigated in future versions of Lightroom but that's what I do now.
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Thanks Jeff...I didn't expect such a quick answer, especially from DA MAN! The one thing I'm not clear on (and it may not make a difference) is do you apply output sharpening before CS3 tweaks (curves, stauration, etc) or at the very end?

Thanks Jeff, I very much appreciate your help!
Phil

sniper · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2007, 06:13:51 pm »

Jeff do you use the default LR sharpen for capture sharpening or do you alter it? Wayne

Monito · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2007, 06:42:02 pm »

Sharpen before, during, and after.

Sharpening is a three stage process.

Use capture sharpening, creative sharpening (and blurring), and output sharpening.

Apply very mild capture sharpening at the earliest opportunity, and apply output sharpening at the latest opportunity. Creative sharpening can be done flexibly in the middle of Photoshop processing, tuning, and tweaking.

Excellent six part article that explains this and much more about sharpening: http://ronbigelow.com/articles/sharpen1/sharpen1.htm

Schewe · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2007, 11:37:56 pm »

Quote

The one thing I'm not clear on (and it may not make a difference) is do you apply output sharpening before CS3 tweaks (curves, stauration, etc) or at the very end?
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I output sharpen at the very end after all other tweeks and only after I've determined the final print size...

macgyver · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2007, 12:56:07 am »

Philip,

Here's the best advice I or anyone here can offer you relating to sharpening, or anything else related to photography:

Don't ever let yourself get so bogged down in technical details that you miss the fun or enjoyment that comes from photography. Questions like this are great and can really stimulate things but I know that its easy to become so bogged down in things that you loose your enjoyment. You yourself said, "Since then, it's been an amazing and fun journey on the learning curve. ". Don't lose that. I have before and its a pain to get it back. Don't take this as saying not to learn about details like this, just take it as advice from someone with some experiance. I thought of it when you said you were new.

-Mac

Philip Weber · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2007, 09:00:06 am »

Quote

Philip,

Here's the best advice I or anyone here can offer you relating to sharpening, or anything else related to photography:

Don't ever let yourself get so bogged down in technical details that you miss the fun or enjoyment that comes from photography. Questions like this are great and can really stimulate things but I know that its easy to become so bogged down in things that you loose your enjoyment. You yourself said, "Since then, it's been an amazing and fun journey on the learning curve. ". Don't lose that. I have before and its a pain to get it back. Don't take this as saying not to learn about details like this, just take it as advice from someone with some experiance. I thought of it when you said you were new.

-Mac
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Thanks Mac, I do appreciate the advice!

Since I am new to photography (doing it as an amature only, no professional aspirations...unless Victoria Secrets calls!) I wanted to have the right tools to work with and a good understanding of how to use them, so when I do bring the pics back home, I can make the most of them. As I'm still learning the capture end too, I figure I'll need all the help I can get on the processing end!

I also enjoy the creative part of the digital processing, so I've probably delved into the technical aspects of this stuff more than most after 2 1/2 months but that's me.

Thanks again for your insights...they're right on. And also, my appreciation to everyone on the board for their responses and kindness to a beginner. The info in the forum, on LL and on Michael and Jeff's tutorials has been invaluable.

All the best!
Phil

Monito · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2007, 09:18:27 pm »

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Don't ever let yourself get so bogged down in technical details that you miss the fun or enjoyment that comes from photography.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

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Right on!

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2007, 02:36:41 pm »

Quote

I'm suggesting (and doing this myself) that for most work, capture sharpening in Lightroom or Camera Raw 4.1 and above is fine and dandy...the only time I would suggest altering this is if you have a high ISO image where you need to do aggressive noise reduction. Noise reduction is best done before sharpening and while CR/LR's noise reduction is improved it's pretty obvious that it's not to the same level of something like Noiseware. In that case I would suggest processing out with little or no capture sharpening, run it through noise reduction and then process through PK Sharpener capture sharpen.

In either case above, I still take print images out to Photoshop for output sharpening even though I bring the print images back into Lightroom for printing. The trip to Photoshop for output sharpening and soft proofing may be mitigated in future versions of Lightroom but that's what I do now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Jeff,

Do I take it from this that you consider capture sharpening in LR/CR4.x to be about as good as Capture Sharpen Pro in PKS?

I was also interested in your closing comment about output sharpening and soft-proofing in future versions of LR, and I'm wondering whether the same could be said for CR? OK, if you tell me to keep wondering, I'll understand , but if there's anything you could advise..................

Cheers,

Mark

Schewe · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2007, 03:03:05 pm »

Quote

Do I take it from this that you consider capture sharpening in LR/CR4.x to be about as good as Capture Sharpen Pro in PKS?
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Capable of it yes...but unlike PK Capture Sharpening you have to use the settings correctly (well, you do with Capture Sharpening in PKS as well, but it's simpler).

As for what may be coming, sorry, can't comment...

:~)

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