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Author Topic: Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al  (Read 7902 times)

Fred Ragland

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« on: October 30, 2007, 11:31:05 am »

In another thread, dhoeschler tells us which media presets (s)he uses for printing Harman Gloss FB Al paper.  Since the paper has had rave reviews by some users, it would be helpful to know what presets those of us who have printed on this paper with the Z3100 have used to get good results.

Could you share your experience?

Thank you,

Fred
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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 12:47:37 pm »

I'm calibrating some right now.  I will report my results here, but thought I should make an observation since I haven't read it anywhere else.  My 24" roll came reverse wound, with the print side facing in.  It was also trimmed similarly to how I would imagine my 8 year old would trim it, not how I would expect a machine of any sort would trim paper.  The paper was a real challenge to load as the curl of the paper made it want to pop up between both the first and second set of rollers.
More to come . . .
Ron H.
PS:  Since it is all trial and error at this point, I'm trying the new Semi-Gloss/Satin (less ink) paper preset first.
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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 06:59:44 pm »

I just got up and running again after upgrading my firmware, driver and printer utility and made my first test with the Harman Gloss.

GOOD NEWS!  I've only tested it with my printer with Postscript and APS, but I profiled with a paper preset of Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper (less ink) and printed with the new software.  Much to my surprise, there are no, I repeat NO starwheel or pinch roller marks on this paper.  It looks great, even under a hard specular light.  I was pretty skeptical, especially since I could see each and every starwheel leaving a mark on my profile print, but somehow it is not an issue in the final print.  

I almost didn't even try it, since I had heard so many people experiencing issues, but a big thanks to dhoeschler for letting me know that it is actually possible.  Now, If I can just figure out a better way to deal with the reverse wound paper from Harman.  Putting the roll on backward, so the print side winds up (!) means that the paper needs to make a fairly hard 90 degree bend before it enters the back of the printer.  Something about that part feels very wrong.

I may experiment with other paper presets, but for now I am trilled to find something that works in order to make this paper a viable option on a Z printer.

-Ron H.

Forgot to mention:  GE was ON.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:02:00 pm by Colorwave »
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rsk72000

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 09:44:35 pm »

Just a comment on the 24" reverse wound Harman Gloss FB AL paper.

I just got a 17" roll today and checked it when I read this post. My roll is is wound with print side facing out, or not reverse wound, and with a nice straight edge. I wonder if the factory just screwed up a batch?

Rick
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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2007, 01:02:04 am »

Quote
Just a comment on the 24" reverse wound Harman Gloss FB AL paper.

I just got a 17" roll today and checked it when I read this post. My roll is is wound with print side facing out, or not reverse wound, and with a nice straight edge. I wonder if the factory just screwed up a batch?

Rick
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I guess I'll speak with Harman about this.  It makes sense from the standpoint of protecting the print surface, but is just a wee bit unorthodox and a major PITA.

Here's a new wrinkle.  The first two test prints I did looked like they had the best D-max of anything I have printed on and the colors were nice and rich as well.  In comparing the profile gamut for the Harman with some of my other papers, though, it is not as impressive as I expected.  The photo below shows the Harman in color vs. the HP Professional Satin paper in white wireframe.  The Harman has very few colors beyond the gamut of the HP paper, and a much weaker bottom end.  The HP paper seems like a clear cut winner profile-wise.  Could this just be idiosyncrasies of the two profiles, or does the Harman paper get that much mileage from the smoothness of it's surface?


-Ron H.
[attachment=3688:attachment][attachment=3689:attachment]
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Fred Ragland

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2007, 10:20:44 am »

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...The Harman has very few colors beyond the gamut of the HP paper, and a much weaker bottom end.  The HP paper seems like a clear cut winner profile-wise.  Could this just be idiosyncrasies of the two profiles, or does the Harman paper get that much mileage from the smoothness of it's surface?
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Ron, thank you for starting the testing of this new paper on the Z3100.  It appears on the Z3100 that the trade-off between the two papers is surface and feel, not hue or gamut.  Behind plexi, Professional Satin would have the edge...a pleasing surprise!

It will be interesting to see if others of us replicate these results.  Thank you again for getting us started.

Fred
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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 12:15:49 pm »

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Ron, thank you for starting the testing of this new paper on the Z3100.  It appears on the Z3100 that the trade-off between the two papers is surface and feel, not hue or gamut.  Behind plexi, Professional Satin would have the edge...a pleasing surprise!

It will be interesting to see if others of us replicate these results.  Thank you again for getting us started.

Fred
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My eyeballs still prefer the smoother surface of the Harman, but I guess the profile differences do tell a second story.  I just wish I had a way of measuring my results to quantify the D-max differences.
-Ron H.
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kers

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2007, 04:15:56 am »

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My eyeballs still prefer the smoother surface of the Harman, but I guess the profile differences do tell a second story.  I just wish I had a way of measuring my results to quantify the D-max differences.
-Ron H.
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Hello Ron
if you used the       Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper (less ink)   ; then would not it be an idea to use a preset with more ink to get the darker colours?

I have used three types of presets on the Archival matte paper and there I found that when using the  the preset -matte paper- the darker colours could not be printed but on the preset -super heavyweight coated paper-  the dark spectrum was a whole lot lot better without sacrificing the lighter colours.

Pieter Kers
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SeanPuckett

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 09:51:39 am »

If you'd like to email me the ICC profile you got from the Harman -- and tell me which paper preset you used, I'll analyze it in gamutworks and put the results on the Wiki.  I'm trying to keep track of gamut results for a variety of medias in public form, just so we can have some absolute numbers to compare things by.  ( sean@nexi.com )

See this page: http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/media
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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 11:09:59 am »

Kers-
You may be right, and there is lots more experimentation to be done before we have a handle on this.  I used the less ink paper preset because of the problem being reported with paper transport marks, thinking that less ink would mean drier ink passing under the starwheels, and also factoring in that others who reported success with the Z and this paper seemed to be using low ink paper presets.  As I said, I got pleasing results to my eye with what looked like good D-max to me, so I don't think the setting I used were that far from optimal.  I'm not able to do any more testing today, but my testing is far from over.  I think the paper deserves the effort.
-Ron H.
PS:  I contacted Harman and was told that my reverse wound roll was a "whoops" and will be getting a replacement roll from them.  Now, if someone can just explain how something like this can happen . . .
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NigelPlayer

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 07:37:24 am »

Quote
Kers-
You may be right, and there is lots more experimentation to be done before we have a handle on this.  I used the less ink paper preset because of the problem being reported with paper transport marks, thinking that less ink would mean drier ink passing under the starwheels, and also factoring in that others who reported success with the Z and this paper seemed to be using low ink paper presets.  As I said, I got pleasing results to my eye with what looked like good D-max to me, so I don't think the setting I used were that far from optimal.  I'm not able to do any more testing today, but my testing is far from over.  I think the paper deserves the effort.
-Ron H.
PS:  I contacted Harman and was told that my reverse wound roll was a "whoops" and will be getting a replacement roll from them.  Now, if someone can just explain how something like this can happen . . .
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Ron-
You reasonably asked for someone to explain how something like this can happen - so I will do just that.

Firstly though, I must apologise to any customers who have experienced the problem with mis-spooled rolls of our Gloss FB Al paper. We pride ourselves on the quality of all our products, and I can honestly say that there was a feeling of disappointment in the air here when we found out that mis-spooled paper had got in to the market.

So what went wrong?  In a way this problem was caused by something which otherwise contributes to the success of the product.

I have said on this forum previously that we produce our Inkjet papers on the very same coating and finishing machines as our well known traditional Photo papers, such as Multigrade FB FIBER and HARMAN Galerie FB Digital. This is how we get so close to the look and feel of traditional prints. When sold on rolls, these traditional papers are produced "Emulsion In" to suit the machines which they are used on.

What went wrong when we mis-spooled this particular batch of Inkjet paper, was that the previous product through our slitting machine was one of these traditional papers, wound Emulsion In - and the operator made an error when he switched over to Producing Inkjet, forgetting to reset the machine to reel with the coated side out. The rolls are bagged, boxed and labelled on the same production line and then sent to our warehouse for despatch.

As you can no doubt imagine, we have now modified our procedures to prevent this kind of mistake happening again - this product has had an amazing reception from the user community and we realise that mistakes like this cause inconvenience and annoyance to the people who really count.

Our product tracking shows that we produced 61 rolls with this fault. Gladly, not all of these 61 rolls got as far as end users, but every one that did was one too many and will obviously be replaced at our expense.

So there it is, an honest straightforward answer - we made a mistake and we are going to do our utmost to put it right and to prevent it happening again.

I hope you find this response useful,

Nigel Player
Marketing Manager - Applications & Services
HARMAN technology Limited
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Jim Cole

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 09:23:37 am »

Is Ron the only one who has been able to calibrate, profile and print on the Harman FB Gloss Al with his Z3100 without roller marks?

As I posted in another thread here, my attempts using his suggested preset paper choice was not successful.

I'm just curious since responses to this and the other thread concerning this paper have stopped with the exception of Harman's response to the mis-wound rolls.

Jim



Quote
I just got up and running again after upgrading my firmware, driver and printer utility and made my first test with the Harman Gloss.

GOOD NEWS!  I've only tested it with my printer with Postscript and APS, but I profiled with a paper preset of Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper (less ink) and printed with the new software.  Much to my surprise, there are no, I repeat NO starwheel or pinch roller marks on this paper.  It looks great, even under a hard specular light.  I was pretty skeptical, especially since I could see each and every starwheel leaving a mark on my profile print, but somehow it is not an issue in the final print. 

-Ron H.

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Colorwave

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Z3100 Media Preset for Harman Gloss FB Al
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 11:22:20 am »

Quote
Ron-
You reasonably asked for someone to explain how something like this can happen - so I will do just that.
Nigel Player
Marketing Manager - Applications & Services
HARMAN technology Limited
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Nigel-

I'd like to thank you for your stopping here and leaving such a detailed description of what happened with your paper.  I'm sure that this is not a particularly easy thing to do.

Harmon's response has been responsible and professional in handling this, so I have no complaints whatsoever.  I must say, I did not show an overabundance of sympathy for how such a significant error could have happened with such a technologically advanced manufacturing process, but I can now imagine the entire scenario and how a simple human error could have occurred.  I also have no doubt that a public whoops like this will result in revised processes that prevent this from happening again.

I only wish that HP would have taken the same approach to the problems they have had in manufacturing quality control with their otherwise fine Professional Satin paper.  Their issues were far less glaring than Harmon's, but stonewalling a problem leaves a bad taste in the mouth and when the customer gets wind of it faith and brand loyalty take a hit.

I still haven't run much of the Harman paper because of the difficulty in dealing with feeding my reverse wound roll through the printer.  Every time the printer stops, the paper develops a permanent bend in the paper where it makes a hard 90ยบ bend at the back of the printer and I loose almost a foot of paper.  I am very interested to see if I happened upon the perfect environmental conditions when I first tested this and whether a new roll behaves the same for me.  I'm crossing my fingers . . . .

-Ron H.

PS:  If the machines were designed for it, coating side in would make a lot more sense, huh?
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