Urgently need advice re: mounting/framing

[dsyroi]

I urgently need some informed advice on mounting/framing.  I'm having a show at a local gallery. We put the show up last night. I was in the gallery again this afternoon, and was quite alarmed to see that several of the prints had big splotches of condensation on the inside of the glass, enough that drips of water were running down the glass on a couple of them. Additionally, a couple of the prints were buckling in several places on the mounting board.

Please note that the gallery has large front windows, and all of the affected prints were being directly hit by late afternoon sun (I know that this is not good for fading, but there's no way around it). The prints are all on Epson Enhanced Matte, and were mounted on acid-free mat board. The guy who did the framing said that the prints could not be dry-mounted because of being printed on matte paper, so they had to be "spray-mounted"(?).

I'm certain that the prints were not exposed to water after I picked them up from the framer - I transported them directly to the gallery space and they were stored in a dry location until being hung. I don't know anything about mounting prints, but it seems to me that the condensation must have something to do with the mounting process, and the fact that the prints were heated by the sun. I'm in Vancouver, and it's late October, so we're not talking about intense heat, but I can't see how any other explanation makes sense. The framer however, said there is no way it could have anything to do with the mounting.

He has offered to fix up all the affected prints (remount the affected ones and clean out the condensation). I need to figure something out by the morning. If, as I suspect, it's a problem with the mounting then I don't see any solution other than having all the prints removed from the mounting board and placed in mats instead. I would rather not do this, it will be another expense, and it is not the way I wanted to present the prints, but I don't want to take a chance on further problems. I greatly appreciate any informed advice on this.

[Colorwave]

I'm no framing pro, but I do know that most better quality framed prints are not mounted at all, but are hinged to the mat with acid free tape at the top.  That way, the print and framing materials can expand and contract without complications from the different expansion rates.  I've had issues with bubbles and buckling after the fact with spray mounting prints, and environmental changes certainly make things worse.  

It sounds like you may have buckling as a result of moisture, though, so that may be the bigger issue for you than temperature.  Does the gallery have forced air heating/cooling?  Perhaps there is something they can do differently if there is excess humidity in the room?

I'm sorry I can't offer anything else that is more useful.  Hopefully others here can offer more concrete advice, short of rehanging the whole show without the spray mounting process or bringing in a dehumidifier.

-Ron H.

[dsyroi]

I'm no framing pro, but I do know that most better quality framed prints are not mounted at all, but are hinged to the mat with acid free tape at the top.  That way, the print and framing materials can expand and contract without complications from the different expansion rates.  I've had issues with bubbles and buckling after the fact with spray mounting prints, and environmental changes certainly make things worse. 

It sounds like you may have buckling as a result of moisture, though, so that may be the bigger issue for you than temperature.  Does the gallery have forced air heating/cooling?  Perhaps there is something they can do differently if there is excess humidity in the room?

I'm sorry I can't offer anything else that is more useful.  Hopefully others here can offer more concrete advice, short of rehanging the whole show without the spray mounting process or bringing in a dehumidifier.

-Ron H.
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Thanks for the reply Ron. I know that the method you describe is often recommended, but I also know that a lot of artists are trending away from presenting their prints in mats, especially with really large prints (3, 4, 5 feet and larger). I think it's a "cleaner" look and prefer it, and assumed that framing this way requires mounting of some type.

Either way, the buckling is one thing, but I'm still trying to understand all the condensation on the inside of the frame. My knowledge of science is patchy, but from what I understand the condensation could only occur if the moisture was already in the frame, and I don't see where it could be coming from unless it's some form of evaporation of the mounting spray.

[Pete Berry]

I hung a show this summer in very foggy, humid Pacific Grove, CA (next to Monterey) using dry-mounting on 3/16" foam board, done with spray adhesive and a press. We used 3/16" hidden standoffs on the back, no frames, for a very clean, contemporary floating-type presentation of the borderless prints. No problems with the forty or so over several months. The museum used no heat or AC and had open windows during the day.

Was a press used in mounting your prints?

I've recently mounted some 17x50-60" dry-mount panos by "floating" them as above on black foam board with a 1" border. Nice!

Pete

[dsyroi]

I hung a show this summer in very foggy, humid Pacific Grove, CA (next to Monterey) using dry-mounting on 3/16" foam board, done with spray adhesive and a press. We used 3/16" hidden standoffs on the back, no frames, for a very clean, contemporary floating-type presentation of the borderless prints. No problems with the forty or so over several months. The museum used no heat or AC and had open windows during the day.

Was a press used in mounting your prints?

I've recently mounted some 17x50-60" dry-mount panos by "floating" them as above on black foam board with a 1" border. Nice!

Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Pete: Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure, but I think he may be using some type of press during the mounting. I have this thread posted in a few different forums because I'm a bit desperate to get this sorted out, a person who replied on another forum said that some condensation is inevitable with framed prints. I guess this makes sense, but I was shocked by how much condensation there was. In thinking about it though, it was probably very humid in the framer's shop when the prints were framed (Vancouver in October), so maybe this is enough of an explanation. If this is the case, I'm wondering whether it would help to remove the sealed paper backing from the backs of the prints while they're hanging in this show, would this allow for at least some of the condensation to escape? Any thoughts on this appreciated.

[bradleygibson]

I do my own mounting and framing, and have seen some buckling under rare circumstances, but never the kind of condensation you are describing.

Is your framer sealing your work with a dust jacket on the back?  If so there won't be much air circulation between the air inside the frame surrounding your work and the air in the gallery.   Because the adhesive probably wasn't completely dry it still had water to evaporate.  I suspect being in the warm sun helped to accelerate this process to the point where the air surrounding your print became super-saturated with water vapour.  When that air touches the cool glass, it condenses--exactly the same as the foggy mirror in the bathroom after a shower.

Since you have to show ASAP, I suggest not sealing the prints so well (give as much airflow as possible) so that the evaporation does not build up humid air between the print and the glass.

Ideally, though, I'd take Ron's suggestion.  I don't know what kind of mounting you're doing, but if you can't do a standard T-hinge (for example if you're showing float mounts), you could still do other techniques--V-hinging and S-hinging both work with float mounts, but you may need to use heavier paper.

In a real pinch (just for the show), you could also consider tacking the work down with an ATG gun (basically 2-sided adhesive "tape").  Don't sell these though!   You'll want to re-mount them properly when you're not under the gun.

Hope that helps!

And send us a picture of the show, if you get an opportunity.  Congratulations.

Best regards,
Brad

[dilip]

Pete: Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure, but I think he may be using some type of press during the mounting. I have this thread posted in a few different forums because I'm a bit desperate to get this sorted out, a person who replied on another forum said that some condensation is inevitable with framed prints. I guess this makes sense, but I was shocked by how much condensation there was. In thinking about it though, it was probably very humid in the framer's shop when the prints were framed (Vancouver in October), so maybe this is enough of an explanation. If this is the case, I'm wondering whether it would help to remove the sealed paper backing from the backs of the prints while they're hanging in this show, would this allow for at least some of the condensation to escape? Any thoughts on this appreciated.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just one question... how long did the prints dry before you took them to the framer?

If they had not fully outgassed, you may be seeing the results of that process (sped up by the sun).  I can't remember when it was previously discussed, but searching these forums for "outgass" and "frame" should help you.

It may not be the framer's fault, but opening the frames and wiping the glass down won't hurt.  You may get more fogging until the print has finished outgassing.

--dilip

[dsyroi]

Just one question... how long did the prints dry before you took them to the framer?

If they had not fully outgassed, you may be seeing the results of that process (sped up by the sun).  I can't remember when it was previously discussed, but searching these forums for "outgass" and "frame" should help you.

It may not be the framer's fault, but opening the frames and wiping the glass down won't hurt.  You may get more fogging until the print has finished outgassing.

--dilip
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Brad and dilip:
Thanks for your replies. I've posted this in a few forums because I'm a bit desperate to sort things out tonight, and based on all the replies I think I've come up with a plan. Assuming the framer can separate the prints from the mounting board (I'm hopeful of this, because he thought he would be able to remount them) I'm going to ask him to mat the prints and remove the paper backing from the frames. This will hopefully allow some air flow, and alleviate concerns about  whether the mounting will hold up. Any additional thoughts still welcome, thanks again to all who replied.

[Jon Abbott]

Brad and dilip:
Thanks for your replies. I've posted this in a few forums because I'm a bit desperate to sort things out tonight, and based on all the replies I think I've come up with a plan. Assuming the framer can separate the prints from the mounting board (I'm hopeful of this, because he thought he would be able to remount them) I'm going to ask him to mat the prints and remove the paper backing from the frames. This will hopefully allow some air flow, and alleviate concerns about  whether the mounting will hold up. Any additional thoughts still welcome, thanks again to all who replied.
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Your problem is well documented. The ink base contains ethylene glycol type substances to stop the ink from drying up in the Epson piezo heads. You can either interleave the prints with an absorbent type blotter paper (overnight at least) or leave the prints out to slowly air dry. EEM paper is not as big a problem as the plastic photobase type papers, since it is paper based and breathes from both surfaces, and absorbs the glycols into the base. But the sun has probably exacerbated the problem. The condensation on the glass is not water, or it would eventually evaporate in the sun, even a closed frame breathes. Of course, the adhesive might also contain something that is outgassing, but we don't use sprays, so I can't comment about that.

Additionally, how you mount your prints is a matter of taste and fashion, and seems to cycle with the decades. Hinging and floating is great for smaller prints, but large prints will eventually buckle no matter how they are hinged, since humidity changes expand and contract the print, but the hinged area is fixed to a backing that expands and contracts at a different rate. Many artists like the hinged look, especially with matte cotton fiber papers. Gloss photobase is more problematical, since it really shows glossy ripples that distract from the image. Even semi-matte photobase paper ripples are irritating to most artists. I have a client that first had the framer float (hing) 44" x 54" Epson Premium Semimatte prints, but the ripples were so distracting they finally had the prints mounted 100% flat. This can look "ironed flat" and yucko, or done properly can be very nice.

But "The guy who did the framing said that the prints could not be dry-mounted because of being printed on matte paper, so they had to be "spray-mounted"(?)." is incorrect. EEM is easy to drymount in a vaccum drymount press because it 'breathes", unlike plastic base papers. However, the best method is not drymounting, but using a roller laminator. In your case, using EEM, a PSA type archival acrylic mounting material would have to be used. Vancover must have a local pro photolab (sign shops also have this equipment) that can do mounting only for you or your framer. Smaller prints on breathable paper can even be done by hand using a squeege or hand roller- air bubbles will disappear in a day to two. Spraying adhesive is a formula for ill health and getting adhesive on the image side. I recommend taking it to a shop. The cost varies wildly, $6 to $20 a square foot, depending on PSA brand/type and city. Check to make sure the adhesive is archival acrylic; as the cheapest PSA are often rubber base for temporary advertizing posters. The most expensive are for front mounting directly to plexi, which you don't need. A moderate cost good brand/type mounting PSA is Mactac IP5000 or various Seal types.  We have  62", 24, and 12" GBC machines, just so you know I have first hand knowledge.

Hey, how about posting a link to your show if you put it online?
Congratulations

[Roscolo]

Additionally, how you mount your prints is a matter of taste and fashion, and seems to cycle with the decades. Hinging and floating is great for smaller prints, but large prints will eventually buckle no matter how they are hinged, since humidity changes expand and contract the print, but the hinged area is fixed to a backing that expands and contracts at a different rate. Many artists like the hinged look, especially with matte cotton fiber papers. Gloss photobase is more problematical, since it really shows glossy ripples that distract from the image. Even semi-matte photobase paper ripples are irritating to most artists.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149525\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Uh oh. I may have a similar issue. I have not framed the prints yet, but I am hanging a show of 32"x40" prints on HP Photo ID Satin. I love this paper. I was planning to hinge the prints and put a 6" = 8" matte over the print. I haven't even considered rippling...I haven't printed my own photo work this size before. I was actually thinking the Photo Satin paper would be great as I expected it to hang more or less flat.

I don't like the idea of mounting prints with adhesive, spray or otherwise, because I don't want to "marry" the print to another surface.

I'm also no framer and I'm framing these prints myself. I need to learn anyway, so I might as well learn now. Any good resource on framing / mounting methods for large prints?

Hate that you're having this problem, but I'm glad this thread came up as I am going to start framing in a few days.

[dsyroi]

Your problem is well documented. The ink base contains ethylene glycol type substances to stop the ink from drying up in the Epson piezo heads. You can either interleave the prints with an absorbent type blotter paper (overnight at least) or leave the prints out to slowly air dry. EEM paper is not as big a problem as the plastic photobase type papers, since it is paper based and breathes from both surfaces, and absorbs the glycols into the base. But the sun has probably exacerbated the problem. The condensation on the glass is not water, or it would eventually evaporate in the sun, even a closed frame breathes. Of course, the adhesive might also contain something that is outgassing, but we don't use sprays, so I can't comment about that.

Additionally, how you mount your prints is a matter of taste and fashion, and seems to cycle with the decades. Hinging and floating is great for smaller prints, but large prints will eventually buckle no matter how they are hinged, since humidity changes expand and contract the print, but the hinged area is fixed to a backing that expands and contracts at a different rate. Many artists like the hinged look, especially with matte cotton fiber papers. Gloss photobase is more problematical, since it really shows glossy ripples that distract from the image. Even semi-matte photobase paper ripples are irritating to most artists. I have a client that first had the framer float (hing) 44" x 54" Epson Premium Semimatte prints, but the ripples were so distracting they finally had the prints mounted 100% flat. This can look "ironed flat" and yucko, or done properly can be very nice.

But "The guy who did the framing said that the prints could not be dry-mounted because of being printed on matte paper, so they had to be "spray-mounted"(?)." is incorrect. EEM is easy to drymount in a vaccum drymount press because it 'breathes", unlike plastic base papers. However, the best method is not drymounting, but using a roller laminator. In your case, using EEM, a PSA type archival acrylic mounting material would have to be used. Vancover must have a local pro photolab (sign shops also have this equipment) that can do mounting only for you or your framer. Smaller prints on breathable paper can even be done by hand using a squeege or hand roller- air bubbles will disappear in a day to two. Spraying adhesive is a formula for ill health and getting adhesive on the image side. I recommend taking it to a shop. The cost varies wildly, $6 to $20 a square foot, depending on PSA brand/type and city. Check to make sure the adhesive is archival acrylic; as the cheapest PSA are often rubber base for temporary advertizing posters. The most expensive are for front mounting directly to plexi, which you don't need. A moderate cost good brand/type mounting PSA is Mactac IP5000 or various Seal types.  We have  62", 24, and 12" GBC machines, just so you know I have first hand knowledge.

Hey, how about posting a link to your show if you put it online?
Congratulations
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149525\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jon: Thanks for the input. As I mentioned on another forum, at the very least this is turning into a good learning experience. As far as possible outgassing, you pointed out that it's less of a problem with EEM, and the printer had said the same thing. The prints did have at least 24 hours before they went into the frames, they were sitting in tissue paper in a cardboard sleeve, I don't know if this would have been sufficiently absorbent, but I just didn't have the space to lay them out to dry. I'm not sure that the condensation wouldn't eventually have dried in the sun, the circumstances were such that they didn't really get a chance. We had cool rainy weather here up until yesterday afternoon, when the sun came out for a few hours. I was in the gallery right in the middle of this sunny period and I think the timing was such that we were actually watching the condensation process as it occurred. If the prints had been left in the sun for longer I think it's possible that it would have eventually evaporated.

Anyway, after the replies here and other forums, I'm pretty sure that the spray didn't contribute to the condensation, I was baffled at first by the large amount of condensation, but as a poster in another forum pointed out, it was a kind of "perfect storm" situation.

Thanks again for the reply.

[larryg]

Thanks for the reply Ron. I know that the method you describe is often recommended, but I also know that a lot of artists are trending away from presenting their prints in mats, especially with really large prints (3, 4, 5 feet and larger). I think it's a "cleaner" look and prefer it, and assumed that framing this way requires mounting of some type.

Either way, the buckling is one thing, but I'm still trying to understand all the condensation on the inside of the frame. My knowledge of science is patchy, but from what I understand the condensation could only occur if the moisture was already in the frame, and I don't see where it could be coming from unless it's some form of evaporation of the mounting spray.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I went to an outdoor show one time (raining) and about 3/4 through the show I noticed that the mattes were buckling and prints were getting buckles also.  Moisture in the area of your print will definately affect your images.  

I do own a frame shop and I have all of my work vacuum sealed mounted, including of course the matte and have not had these problems again.

The preferred fine art method is to hinge mount and thus be able to change mattes/frames without any harm to the art.  Moisture could be an issue with hinge mounts.

I think I would take the work back to the original shop and have them fix for your show.  You really don't have the time nor probably want to spend a fortune at this juncture to redo to something completely different.  You might check the area your prints are displayed and see if there is a moisture/dampness problem there.

Larry

[Roscolo]

I just put one of my 32"x40"'s on the wall to let it hang and see how much rippling or buckling may occur just with it hanging there.

My prints have 3" borders around the image area. I am hoping that this extra border combined with a 4-ply matte on top will be enough to discourage rippling or buckling with the print hinged, not mounted. I was trained that mounting the print to anything is inherently bad. I guess this show will be a good test. I can always mount a hinged print; one can't always "unmount" a mounted print.

[JeffKohn]

Does anyone know anything about the archival properties of that 3M repositionable adhesive mount? It's supposed to be non-permanent, but I don't know whether it's acid-free or not. I've started using it for some of my personal pano prints from roll paper, because getting those to lay flat is impossible with t-hinging. But at this point I have no idea if it's going to turn the prints yellow in a few years so I would be hesitant to actually sell prints mounted in this way.