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Author Topic: 300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4  (Read 12647 times)

Gupfold

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« on: October 29, 2007, 11:28:02 am »

Hi there

Can someone give me a little feedback on a choice I am battling to make on a long lens.

I would like to know if the Canon 300 f2.8 with a 1.4X extender will be as sharp as the Canon 500 f4 without an extender.

I realize that the 300 would be a little more versitile as it can be used without the extender as well but I am interested purely in image quality and want the sharpest option. Will the 500 be sharper or will there be no difference?

I am also interested to know if anyone has found the 300 f4 to be just as good as the 300 f2.8 (at f4 and smaller obviously).

Thank you
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mahleu

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2007, 12:45:44 pm »

Have you considered the 400mm f/4.0 DO IS ? It's cheaper than the 500 but more than the 300. There is also the 44/5.6 which is supposedly very good and more importantly very cheap compared to the faster options. I'm planning on getting this in the future as my 70-200 goes a bit mushy with a 2x converter.
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Morgan_Moore

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2007, 01:14:48 pm »

Quote
Hi there

Can someone give me a little feedback on a choice I am battling to make on a long lens.

I would like to know if the Canon 300 f2.8 with a 1.4X extender will be as sharp as the Canon 500 f4 without an extender.

I realize that the 300 would be a little more versitile as it can be used without the extender as well but I am interested purely in image quality and want the sharpest option. Will the 500 be sharper or will there be no difference?

I am also interested to know if anyone has found the 300 f4 to be just as good as the 300 f2.8 (at f4 and smaller obviously).

Thank you
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149347\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You question asks about sharpness - to answer that - I have no idea

Modern teleconverteres are not bottle tops of old - they are good

I personally would be thinking out your strategy for your whole system

To me a 300 2.8 is a big lens not happy in a bag when you go walkabout and a bit beefy for no monopod- a 300/4 is not heavy and pretty easily carried and used without a monopod

The 500/4 is also small/light in terms of super teles

So with a 300/4 and a 500/4 you have a really great and comparitvly portable system at a great price and only need a 'pod with the longest lens

This system however will have its limitations for really serious sports and willife work where lenses like the 400 2.8 and its conversion possibilities come to the fore

A 300 2.8 doesnt for me really sit into an obvious place in a system

So I would go for the 500 because it may play a part in your 'goal' system

Buy buying only 'goal' items you will save in the long run

Or If I were really serious about playing in those specific photographic arenas get the 400 2.8

ps I own a 600/4 and 300 2.8 and can say that carrying those can be a major encumberance to actually getting to where you want to take pictures

Starting again I would go 300/f4 and 500f4 regardless of cost

S
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 01:18:04 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

stever

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2007, 08:41:53 pm »

the 300 f4 is not all that sharp wide open - the 300 f2.8 is, and remains sharp with 1.4x and even 2x extenders

i use the 100-400 extensively with a 20D as it's not much worse than the 300 f4 and MUCH more useful - the combination of a 100-400 and a 500 would be more generally useful than a 500 and 300 f4.

you don't say what camera you're using or what you're planning to shoot
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Don Libby

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2007, 10:55:58 pm »

I have both the 300 f/2.8 as well as a 400 DO.  I used to have a 500 but sold it to finance the 300.  Here’s what I found:

The 300 is much lighter than the 500 and much easier to use “on the fly” meaning not always on a tripod.

The 300 is useable both by itself as well as with a 1.4 or 2x converter.

I just brought the 400 and while I haven’t had as much experience with that as I’ve had with the 300 I’ve found that I like it very much.  I found that for me the 400 works best by itself as well as with a 1.4 converter.  I also found I didn’t like the results (subjective opinion) using the 2x converter.

Both the 300 and 400 are more than useable handheld.

You’ll be happy with either.

BTW, I shoot with both a 5D as well as 1Ds II

don

bradleygibson

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 12:07:42 am »

Quote
I also found I didn’t like the results (subjective opinion) using the 2x converter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149474\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll second that; I have used both the 1.4 and the 2.0 (mk I and mk II TC's) on my 300/2.8 IS.  The 1.4x is no problem, but I don't like the 2.0 either (I ended up selling my 2.0).

As for the 500/4 vs the 300/2.8 + 1.4x, the 500/4 is sharper.  But the 500 is heavier, harder to  transport, etc., so it's a tradeoff.  I didn't find the difference to be night and day, but if I sat and stared, I could reliably pick out which images were the 300+1.4 vs which were the 500/4.  I doubt the difference would ever jump out at anyone, though in 'real world' circumstances (ie. evaluating the work as art...)

Again agreed with Iron Creek--you'll probably be happy with either.

HTH,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 12:10:50 am by bradleygibson »
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-Brad
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Ray

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 12:48:17 am »

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the 300 f4 is not all that sharp wide open - the 300 f2.8 is, and remains sharp with 1.4x and even 2x extenders

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's not possible for any lens with a teleconverter to be as sharp as it was without a teleconverter. A lens that is of medium quality becomes a lens of rather poor quality when an extender is added, and a lens that is brilliant becomes a lens that is merely good.

To understand why this is so, you need to understand MTF response and how contrast affects sharpness. When you add a teleconverter to a lens, you are accessing resolution that was previously beyond the resolving capability of your sensor.

If the finest detail your camera's sensor can capture is 50 lp/mm, for example, when you add a 2x extender, what was previousy 50 lp/mm becomes 25 lp/mm and what was previously an unobtainable 100 lp/mm is magnified to 50 lp/mm, theoretically allowing your sensor at least the possibility of capturing it.

However, no lens however good can resolve 100 lp/mm with the same contrast as 50 lp/mm, and no lens however good can resolve 50 lp/mm with the same contrast as 25 lp/mm.

Even if your teleconverter were a perfect lens without any aberration and were perfectly transparent, the image would not have the same accutance, sharpness or detail as a shot of the same scene with the same lens without 2x extender but from half the distance.
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Gupfold

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 01:14:12 am »

Thank you all for your replies. Still havnt made up my mind but at least you have confirmed what I thought (500 is sharper but bigger etc harder to use than the 300 with 1.4). Thanks again.
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juicy

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 07:22:15 am »

Hi!

Quote
I would like to know if the Canon 300 f2.8 with a 1.4X extender will be as sharp as the Canon 500 f4 without an extender.

I realize that the 300 would be a little more versitile as it can be used without the extender as well but I am interested purely in image quality and want the sharpest option. Will the 500 be sharper or will there be no difference?

I am also interested to know if anyone has found the 300 f4 to be just as good as the 300 f2.8 (at f4 and smaller obviously).

What kind of subjects are you photographing? Which camera(s) are you gonna use this lens with?

If you use 5D, 1Ds or 1Dmk2, then 300mm f/2.8 is so good that for most situations when shooting wildlife or sports the 1.4x converter won't be an issue of resolution, bokeh is more affected (IMO) but even that is not ruined and it's still better than average because of allmost zero aberrations and ultimate sharpness of the 300. 1Ds2/3 and 40D are more demanding.

Many wildlife photographers use 300mm f/2.8 with either 1.4x or 2x converter attached most of the time. The combo is shorter and lighter than 500mm f/4 and many bird photographers I have discussed with have concluded that they get more keepers with this combo than with either 500 or 600mm f/4 because of better maneuverability/easier tracking handheld. There is a difference in IQ but your subjects and shooting style will dictate the better approach.

500mm f/4 is sharper than 300 with converter but as already said in earlier posts the difference is not huge.

300mm f/2.8 is sharper and has faster AF than 300mm f/4 (the differences are small).

The first question you need to ask yourself is what are you shooting. If using the lens with a heavy tripod and MLU to shoot stationary targets then the differences between 500 and the other combos will be clearly seen. When shooting moving targets or hand held in less than perfect light there won't be meaningful IQ degradation with a converter combo (when the lens itself is top class) and 300mm f/2.8 is an awesome lens on it's own.

Cheers,
J
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Gupfold

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2007, 12:26:15 pm »

Quote
Hi!
What kind of subjects are you photographing? Which camera(s) are you gonna use this lens with?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149534\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry J, forgot to write that, Its a now a 40D and mostly birds with some game photography. Thanks for the reply.
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Geoff Wittig

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 10:33:06 am »

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Sorry J, forgot to write that, Its a now a 40D and mostly birds with some game photography. Thanks for the reply.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here's a contrarian view.
If you're shooting mostly birds and game animals, there's no such thing as too much reach. The 500 f:4 on your 40D will provide excellent sharpness and reach, while still being significantly lighter and smaller than the 600. Yes, the 300 f:2.8 will be a bit handier, and your 1.6x crop will make it more like a 480 f:2.8; but if you're shooting small birds every extra millimeter of reach is helpful. John Shaw once described the 300 f:2.8 as a great tennis lens, but not long enough for most wildlife. I use a 500 f:4 on a 1Ds mk II, and find myself wishing I'd gone for the 600 much of the time.
Just my take. Your mileage may vary.
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Gary Ferguson

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 11:05:03 am »

I've owned the 100-400mm, 300mm 2.8, 300mm 4.0, and 500mm 4.0. Here's my take,

1. Firstly, Canon lenses are variable in quality, and that's true of even the most expensive L lenses. Just to give you one example, I had to return my new 500mm 4.0 for optical correction due to de-centering, the image was consistently slightly softer in one quadrant than in the opposte quadrant. This quality variability can be quite marked and it means that in practise you have to look at the performance of individual lenses rather than at the lens's MTF chart. It's a shame, the MTF charts for Zeiss and Leica lenses tells you pretty much what you're going to get, the MTF charts for Canon lenses tells you the best you can hope for, if you're lucky.

2. Some of the lenses you're discussing are starting to get a little bit long in the tooth, for example most only have 2 stops of IS. There's been two generations of IS development since then, which can make quite a difference in practical image quality terms. Don't forget, many of the best wildlife shots are fired off handheld in extreme urgency.

3. My 500mm 4.0 was almost identical to my 300mm 2.8 in the centre of the frame, but the 500mm had the advantage at the frame's edge. The fact is Canon's multiplier's are "jack-of-all-trade" optics rather than performance matched to one particular lens, and it shows. For comparison I also use the Hasselblad 350mm super-achromat, it comes with a dedicated x1.4 multiplier, comparing performance with this as against the standard Hasselblad x1.4 multiplier is like comparing chalk with cheese. As further evidence I'd cite the Canon Lens book which gave MTF charts for most lenses with and without the x1.4 and x2.0 multipliers, it's clear that these multipliers have variable performance with different lenses.

4. I've subsequently sold my 300 2.8 and replaced it with a 300mm 4.0, which is a superb optic and one of my all time favourite Canon lenses.

5. One of the most important Canon developments is happening right now with their RAW converter, from the converter scheduled for release later in 2007 it will start to correct the image for several optical defects, including colour fringing, vignetting, and distortion. It's my guess that we'll see much more development in this direction with significant implications for lens design. But here's the rub, many current lenses can't take full advantage of this new technology. Paradoxically some quite old lenses (like the 100-400 and the original 85 1.2) can, while some more recent lenses (like almost all of the longer lenses) can't.

6. I sold my 100-400 after trawling through three versions to find a good one. I found the ergonomics poor and the image quality very variable, not only across the zoom range but also in terms of far/near focus and centre/edge consistency. When it was good it was excellent, but most of the time it was just indifferent.

Just my opinion.
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williamrohr

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300 f2.8 with 1.4 extender or 500 f4
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2007, 08:22:06 pm »

I happen to own all the Canon long lenses and have tested them all in detail with IMATEST, USAF charts, etc. First, you can't go wrong with any of them.  In actual tests my 400/2.8 and 500/4 are the absolute sharpest of the bunch.  The 300/2.8 is next, the 600/4 is slightly behind (pixel peeping differences actually)  and the 400DO/4 is slightly further back except in CA where it shines.  The 100-400 is in my opinion (and supported by testing) considerably less sharp.  That said ... it is the 400DO/4 that went with me to Antarctica and represents 70% of the pictures in my gallery ... it so light and hand-holdable (although in Antarctica it usually had a Kenyon gyro attached ... still lighter than the 400/2.8)  My most used lens for large birds is the 500/4 which I almost always shoot at 5.6 or 8.  Carry the 600 around for an hour and you'll see the practicality of the 500/4.  The 1.4 is OK and although it measurably degrades the image, the effects are not that noticable unless enlarged significantly.  I use the 2X on my desk as a paperweight.  The tests don't seem to be that bad but it has some effect on the contrast that in my opinion makes it unacceptable (the images become "muddy" ... I know, not very scientific).  As to your basic question ... if it is any type of wildlife you'll be shooting ... get the 500/4 and 1.4X.  Personally I use the 300/2.8 mostly for landscapes.  Bill
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