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Author Topic: alpa P45+ with ?? lens  (Read 8969 times)

vgogolak

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alpa P45+ with ?? lens
« on: October 25, 2007, 10:25:32 pm »

I finally broke down and ordered an ALPA  TC from Badger for use with my Phase back. As much as I like the contax and Hassel lenses for WA and landscapes you just can't beat the non retro lenses.

BUT

which one?  I ordered the 35mm Digitar as a starter, but wonder what experience has been with the 'guess the distance' approach?
Up to what FL?
Will it work at 48mm?
Can't see it that useful except with GG or live preview above 50mm, but maybe I am wrong.
Seems those who try it like it, and have learned to live with the focus issues.

And the images ARE spectacular.

I would like it for travel. Can you actually use it for street shots? (Michael's "Most expensive P&S comes to mind :-)

Any suggestions welcomed.

regards
Victor
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rethmeier

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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 12:27:54 am »

Hi Victor,
the beauty with Alpa is that the lenses they supply are calibrated by Schneider or Rodenstock for that matter.
Infinity is infinity and 3 meters is 3 meters!
A second lens I would go with (if you like wides) is the Schneider Apo-Digitar 24.
The 35 Apo-Digitar is great as well.
Eric Staudemaier (ericstaud)  uses 3 or 4 Scheider Apo Digitars on his Alpa 12 WDS
He's a member of this forum.

I think you're doing the right thing.
My plan is also to get an Alpa for wide,as my Hy6 will give me a 40 as the widest.
I know there will be a 35,however for it's new price I could probably buy an Alpa with a 35 or 24.
Cheers,
Willem.
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ericstaud

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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 02:46:22 am »

Here's a long babbling answer....

It is very style dependent.  I have taken the Alpa out on a few occasions and shot handheld for fun.  I got some decent results.  One important note is that I used the Aptus 75 so no wake-up button was necessary.  I shot these handheld with the 47 digitar and the Aptus 75, no center filter, and using no shifts (so that I could use one custom gain file for the whole shoot).  I don't know if the LCC correction for the P45 would work racking focus back and forth and changing f-stops.  Shooting that white disc all the time would kill the handheld fun for me.

http://www.ericstaudenmaier.com/Alpa_Aptus75_47digitar

It's a lot of work estimating exposure, focus, and parallax.  I was surprised how many sharp and composed pictures I made though.  I am getting the Phase wake-up handle for the 12 SWA.  I don't know if I will start taking the camera out again for family events or not.  I might do it for fun, not for work.  I also find myself shooting at 200 or 400 asa when doing handheld.  It is hard to hold 33MP steady.

The alpa viewfinder is fisheye, so it pushes the subject away from you.  It works well with the 24-47 lenses.  With the longer masks, the area the lens sees is very tiny in the viewfinder.  There are people using Leica finders on their Alpa cameras, but I don't know much about it.  This might enable hand held work with lenses longer than 47.

As far as tripod work is concerned, I use the 24, 35, 47, 72, and 100.  The 100 is the least used for my style of work.  The 35, 47, and 72 are real workhorse lenses for me.  Every tripod picture involves 3-10 captures making changes to focus, composition, and exposure with each (just like shooting Polaroids).  When I get to the final image I shoot the LCC file as well.

My reason for buying the Alpa/Phase was to replace my 4x5 outfit first and foremost for architecture work on a tripod.  I don't want to give the impression that I purchased the Alpa with shooting family photos or street photography in mind, but I thought my experiences might help you decide about how to use your new camera.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 03:12:08 am by ericstaud »
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Geoffrey

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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 05:24:48 am »

Eric's answer makes a lot of sense - I came across him about a year or so ago shooting a building in San Francisco. I was with a digital Leica, him with his Alpa on a tripod. After discussing the joys and concerns of LF and digital (how to get a good back, addressing centerline and white balancing issues, the need for a good dealer to stand behind the products), what impressed me is how the Alpa and back really did replace the 4x5. Eric could pick up the entire camera/back/tripod setup with one hand, and walk around with it, easily. In the streets of San Fran, it seemed a bit nerve racking to have that portability, but boy, was it light.

Fast - not really: each shot required test shots for accurate composition, but you could do it all in the field: focus checks, exposure, and whatever else you wanted. As to crispness, and definition- it was exemplary.

There is probably something still outthere between handheld smaller digital gear and this kind of setup - perhaps architectural quality compositions can be achieved by MF gear (Hy6 anyone?), but for detailed work, the Alpa and backs give a real quality boost, while still very portable. Its sort of like 4x5 work that you can easily carry around and use. There are lots of little steps for each shot, so its not for thoughtless work, but great results with such a handy setup.

Geoff
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vgogolak

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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 09:01:40 am »

Dear All
Many thanks! nothing like real experience.
I will be getting the wakeup handle. I had spoken to Apla a year ago and the were working on a 'new cable' seems according to Jeff at Badger that they really just incorporated the Kapture cable into the grip to make compact etc.
I assume it is still a two step to expose, but at least do not need to reset the shutter!
Eric, I am surprised at either skill or good guess work on the longer FL the subject hit focus quite well. Can you tell me the range of leneses you used? the 'punpkin patch looks like one of those really spectacular shots with the Apodigtar 24 or 35

I wonder if a 40ish or even longer is in the cards for distance focusing (I do not have a laser ranger but am considering one. Actually, I do a lot of guessing with the Contax since the autofocus pick poor subject and the screen, though good strains the 64 yr eyes!

I look forward to other comments, but I must say this is what this forum is all about. Three solid, helpful and seems like interested answers

thanks very much
I will keep you posted (pun intended!  :-)
regards
Victor
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 09:03:07 am by vgogolak »
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sc_john

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alpa P45+ with ?? lens
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 09:37:05 am »

Victor,
I use Alpa 12SWA with P25, and now P45+. My lenses are 35 Digitar and 80 Digitar. I agree with everything said here concerning quality of files, camera, lenses. Regarding handheld shooting, I find the 35 to be very usable, given the DOF of the lens (however, you must mentally modify the DOF scales on lens which are for film... a good DOF calculator for P45 is here http://www.stegmann.dk/mikkel/barnack/). Notwithstanding "handholdability" of 35, I am more likely to use with tripod. 80mm is always on tripod; I've had almost no luck guesstimating focus on this one. For focus I use gg with either Hasselblad right-angle magnifying finder (Rfx?) or Alpa leather hood w/ loupe. Both work fine.

Re shifts, I have built a library of lcc captures, for each lens at f8, 11, 16, at various rise/fall (usually in 5mm increments). With these I rarely shoot an lcc capture on site.

Two shot system is a pain, but can be overcome w/ Kapturegroup Oneshot cable, or a custom wake-up cord from Phase one or Capture Integration (I prefer Capture Integration 's... http://www.captureintegration.com/sales/ex...imarysync.html) used along with Alpa's Right-hand Shoulder Release. I haven't tried Alpa's lefthand wake-up handle, but would be interested in hearing how it works. One word of caution,,, in changing lenses, I recently broke the PC synch socket off the 35 Digitar. Lesson learned: make sure the synch cables are not too tight.

John
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vgogolak

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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 10:00:38 am »

Dear John
Yes, I wonderad about the color cast. sounds like you worked it out though.

The 80? so you swap the gg and back?
any luck with the live preview?

regards
Victor
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sc_john

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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 11:05:56 am »

Quote
Dear John
Yes, I wonderad about the color cast. sounds like you worked it out though.

The 80? so you swap the gg and back?
any luck with the live preview?

regards
Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148822\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Victor,

Re 80... yes, I focus and swap gg and back... double checking on P45 screen. My shooting is mostly outdoors so I haven't tried live focus.

John
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Gary Ferguson

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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 08:56:18 am »

Quote
I would like it for travel. Can you actually use it for street shots? (Michael's "Most expensive P&S comes to mind :-)

I'm going to be a little controversial here and say that lenses of the same focal length do not in practise deliver the same depth of field. As evidence I'd cite Zeiss's previous Marketing Director, who posted regularly about this issue on Photo.net. Consequently your choice of lens is crucial if you're relying on scale focusing. From my own practical experience using Hasselblad lenses, the 38mm Biogon has exceptionally deep depth of field, the older 40mm lenses have moderate depth of field, and the latest 40mm IF lens has a very shallow depth of field (but delivers the sharpest result of all in the plane of focus). I'm inclined to believe that at any given focal length retro focus lenses have less workable depth of field, and zoom lenses often seem to have still less again.

In the 1930's lens manufacturers reached a gentlemen's agreement to quote depth of field to a common standard to avoid pyrhic publicity battles over whose lens provided the most depth of field. The standard they arrived at was based on the low resolution of films allied to the tiny enlargement factors common at the time, and it is comically out of date for today's ultra high resolution digital backs and their attendant huge enlargement factors. Unfortunately it's exactly that seventy year old standard that we still use today.

Merely stopping down one or two stops makes little practical difference, basically with today's technology if you're using a narrow depth of field lens then the subject is either in focus or it's not. So for scale focusing applications, choose your lens with care and search for subjects that are at infinity!
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mmurph

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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 03:18:57 pm »

There is a thraed about the Cambo Wide DS and using an electronic measuring device.

Many are successfully using something like the $100 Fat Max - or whatever it is called - electronic measuring tool. I have one, but I forget all of these stupid names.     )  Should also apply to the Alpa.  

Do a search on "Cambo Wide" and you should find the thread.

Best,
Michael
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clawery

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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 08:42:45 pm »

I tested our Alpa 12 SWA with a Phase One P30+ when we were in New York for PhotoPlus Expo.
It was very easy to use hand held, but highly recommend using the left hand wake up button.  If anybody is interested, I can post some files.

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
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vgogolak

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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 09:27:32 pm »

Quote
I tested our Alpa 12 SWA with a Phase One P30+ when we were in New York for PhotoPlus Expo.
It was very easy to use hand held, but highly recommend using the left hand wake up button.  If anybody is interested, I can post some files.

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Chris
would very much be interested. The important question of course is the lens, as Gary points out.
Since I want small and don't need shifts I ordered the TC. For starters I also ordered the 35mm Apo-Digitar, seeing that as almost the mode; that is, included in most lens round ups.
I am particularly interested in experience related to Gary's contention on the lens design and DOF. This makes a lot of sense. Of course the 38mm Biogon is no longer available

NB if anyone has one to sell please let me know!

regards
victor
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ynp

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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 11:05:24 pm »

I had a chance to shoot with the ALPA and Biogon once. I do not own the lens, it belongs to my friend's boss and he is a collector, he does not use his lenses. As I remember the Biogon in ALPA mount was bought for $10,000 and the Moscow ALPA dealer has the lens for sale now and they want EURO 10,000 for it. I cannot comment on DOF of the lens, although I remember that I did not have any problems with focusing.

In my experience my new (preowned) eMotion 75LV is less forgiving and more difficult to hit the focus on the ALPA than my e22 on the same camera with the same lens. Does it means that DOF of high density sensors is smaller (at distances 1-3 m)? Do people find that the 22 mpx backs perform better for street and event photography on ALPAs and similar cameras?

Yevgeny

 
Quote
I'm going to be a little controversial here and say that lenses of the same focal length do not in practise deliver the same depth of field. As evidence I'd cite Zeiss's previous Marketing Director, who posted regularly about this issue on Photo.net. Consequently your choice of lens is crucial if you're relying on scale focusing. From my own practical experience using Hasselblad lenses, the 38mm Biogon has exceptionally deep depth of field, the older 40mm lenses have moderate depth of field, and the latest 40mm IF lens has a very shallow depth of field (but delivers the sharpest result of all in the plane of focus). I'm inclined to believe that at any given focal length retro focus lenses have less workable depth of field, and zoom lenses often seem to have still less again.

In the 1930's lens manufacturers reached a gentlemen's agreement to quote depth of field to a common standard to avoid pyrhic publicity battles over whose lens provided the most depth of field. The standard they arrived at was based on the low resolution of films allied to the tiny enlargement factors common at the time, and it is comically out of date for today's ultra high resolution digital backs and their attendant huge enlargement factors. Unfortunately it's exactly that seventy year old standard that we still use today.

Merely stopping down one or two stops makes little practical difference, basically with today's technology if you're using a narrow depth of field lens then the subject is either in focus or it's not. So for scale focusing applications, choose your lens with care and search for subjects that are at infinity!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jost von Allmen

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 06:33:22 am »

Hi Victor
I use a ALPA SWA with P45+ since May 2007 and had originally planned to replace my whole 4"x5" with the system including the Rodenstock HR35mm, 60mm, 100mm, and digitar 180mm.
As I was used to working on tripod only, I ordered and use the ALPA screenholder, groundglass and Reflexite Fresnel lens from the beginning with great success: Focussing is extremly precise. The whole setup isn't that slow either.
However I soon discovered that I was able to handhold the camera and achieve amazing results as well.
Now the main problem: Its always a compromise between f-stop (depths of field) and handholdable shutterspeed.
I realized that the distance scale on the lenses is very accurate, but markings on the lenses for dephts of field are calibrated for film, therefore the circle of confusion is too big for the small pixels (on a P45+).
I end up using always one lower mark (eg when setting f8 on the lens, I use the scale for f5,6).
And at the same time, because of the small pixels, you really have to use as short shutter speeds as possible. Unless you increase the ISO setting, there's hardly a way to get around that.
You do become used to guessing distance and setting f-stops in a way to improve image quality while shooting the camera handheld though. I mainly use the 35mm, the 60mm and 100mm are fine even handheld as long as no close subjects (within 8m) are involved.
I also use a laser distance meter (as discussed in another thread here), but there's no way you could use it in an unobtrusive shooting style.
And I find the ALPA „wake-up“ grip, trigger and cable for Phase One (and Mamiya ZD backs) the best solution there is! It's a very well integrated system, you very quickly get accustomed to first press with the left forefinger and then the right (within 4 sec) to release the shutter.
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Gary Ferguson

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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 08:49:04 am »

Quote
I had a chance to shoot with the ALPA and Biogon once. I do not own the lens, it belongs to my friend's boss and he is a collector, he does not use his lenses. As I remember the Biogon in ALPA mount was bought for $10,000 and the Moscow ALPA dealer has the lens for sale now and they want EURO 10,000 for it. I cannot comment on DOF of the lens, although I remember that I did not have any problems with focusing.

In my experience my new (preowned) eMotion 75LV is less forgiving and more difficult to hit the focus on the ALPA than my e22 on the same camera with the same lens. Does it means that DOF of high density sensors is smaller (at distances 1-3 m)? Do people find that the 22 mpx backs perform better for street and event photography on ALPAs and similar cameras?

Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yevgeny, I've used both a Phase One P25 and a P45+ on a Hasselblad 903 SWC with the 38mm Biogon. In my experience neither is particularly satisfactory for "street" style shooting because range focusing is so hit and miss. But for more static subjects, particularly at longer distances, then it's a very viable option. I've no doubt that the 38mm Biogon is more than capable of exploiting the 39mpx resolution capabilities of the P45+ back.
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clawery

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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 05:57:23 pm »

Quote
Dear Chris
would very much be interested. The important question of course is the lens, as Gary points out.
Since I want small and don't need shifts I ordered the TC. For starters I also ordered the 35mm Apo-Digitar, seeing that as almost the mode; that is, included in most lens round ups.
I am particularly interested in experience related to Gary's contention on the lens design and DOF. This makes a lot of sense. Of course the 38mm Biogon is no longer available

NB if anyone has one to sell please let me know!

regards
victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Victor,

I'm using the Schneider 47mm f 5.6 Apo-Digitar on the Alpa.  I would recommend doing a LCC, even if it is after your shoot.  I have found that you will also need to back off the infinity mark
for a true infinity focus.  

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
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