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Author Topic: Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?  (Read 9968 times)

Lust4Life

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« on: October 22, 2007, 05:20:20 pm »

I had planned to go to the show in NYC last week but a nasty sinus infection that I'm still dealing with cancelled that idea.

One of my main purposes for the trip was to personally inspect the new Arca Rm3d camera.  

Particularily interested in reported ability to accurately focus it without using GG and the swap on/off of my P45+ back.  Reportedly the optical viewfinder has a focus feature that also defines the correct DOF for the main focus point relative to chosen f-stop.

My use would be for landscape work; long hikes and wide angle shots. From the very limited info I've read on the Rm3D, I like the light weight for backpacking and the ability to tilt the front stands.  Shiftis not an isssue for me on pano images as I use and like the Really Right Stuff Pano device.
 
I get a knot in my gut when I think of standing on slippery rocks in the middle of a stream trying to swap GG and digital back with the Cambo WDS, Alpa, etc!


I'd appreciate your impressions if anyone had a chance to give it a through examination at the show.

Thanks,
Jack
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 06:58:12 am by Lust4Life »
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Jeffreytotaro

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2007, 11:02:14 am »

Hi Jack:

I saw these cameras last week.  There are 2, a 6x9 version and a 4x5 version.  The larger has more movements of course.  The nice thing here is the helical focus mount on the camera body not each lens.  This will keep the cost and weight of the system lower.  The view finder looked to be very good. The DOF scales are calibrated for digital.  There's a moveable (magnetic) mask on the view finder that you move with your fingers to indicate lens shift.  It's a bit sloppy but may not be the final version.  

The cameras are hand holdable and pretty lightweight.  Worth a look.  Alpa competes in this price range and is worth a look too.  The 12 SWA has 25mm of rise.  The viewfinder is not as nice as the Arca.  Perhaps and Alpa camera with an Arca viewfinder?
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Mort54

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2007, 01:24:36 pm »

Quote
The nice thing here is the helical focus mount on the camera body not each lens.  This will keep the cost and weight of the system lower.
I hadn't heard that before, but it's an excellent idea.

Did you see their so-called e-Module? Can you tell us what that is?

I'm also interested in more info on their finder. They claim it can handle a focal length range of 24mm to 210mm. Is it optically zoomable?

I just wish they would publish more information on this thing. What little is currently available is tantalizing, but woefully incomplete.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 01:27:14 pm by Mort54 »
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MattLaver

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2007, 09:11:26 pm »

I guess my question with the helical focussing on the body rather than the individual lenses is how it handles the difference in required movement for extreme wides like the 24xl compared to the longer lenses.

For instance the range of focussing movement on the 24 from camera to infinity is something minute like a couple of millimetres and therefore needs a very fine thread on the helical barrel, as it were. Even the 47 has a much longer throw of movement to shift the focus from camera to infinity with a correspondly coarser thread on the helical mount.

A one size fits all solution would suggest a compromise somewhere, if only in the ease of focussing use.

I'd be happy to see that they had found an elegant solution, but I'm curious to know how practically it works in reality.

Matt
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Steve Stayton

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 12:35:29 am »

Jack,

I did get a chance to inspect and handle the Rm3d at PhotoPlus last week and was favorably impressed by what I was able to see in the brief time that I had with it. I had intended to go back for another look when I had more time but was unable to.

As indicated above, they showed two versions, the Rm3d intended for digital backs or 6X9 film and the larger RL3d for up to 4X5 (don’t quote me on the current model names as they had no literature hand outs). Both cameras are very compact for their respective format and solidly constructed with what appear to be precise movements.

The Rm3d shown looked just like the one in this dealers listing:

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/ArcaSwiss.htm#LabelRline

The large helical focus unit incorporated into the camera is quite nice and operated smoothly with no noticeable backlash.

The single axis tilt mechansim is operated with the bright finished wheel below and to the right of the finder (viewed from the front) and seemed precise as well. One concern with any of the digital back cameras with tilt movement is the ability of the adjustment center detent to accurately return the lens standard to null posisiton when desired. This would be a concern of mine with this camera (as well as all the others I have seen) and would need to be evaluated with hands on testing.

The viewfinder was really quite nice and an improvement over others that I have seen recently (Alpa, Horseman, etc). It incorporates some (fixed?) lenses and a telescoping front housing that is set for the focal length in use. The front housing has a magnetically attached framing mask for different formats. The framing mask can be shifted to model the shifts applied to the lens or back standards. The mask shifting on the demo unit was uncalibrated but I suspect calibration marks could be incorporated easily.

The viewfinder has a multitude of scales related to the built in depth of field indicator which is a removable cylinder for different lenses that is rotated depending on the user set subject distance. This clever little device will be a nice feature if it proves accurate.

I was told the E-module was not available for PhotoPlus but it was explained as an electronic distance measuring unit that attaches to the side of the R series camera and couples to electronic sensors inside the camera. I was shown one of the electronic displacement sensors inside the camera that measures the actual distance that the lens in use is shifted when the focus helical is operated. The E-module can then be calibrated to infinity focus for each lens in use and then presumably indicate actual focussed distance. It was my understanding that the E-module will also be capable of measuring camera to subject distance via some type of rangefinder – somehow – it was not clear the method of distance measuring.

Availability of the R camera in the US was described as not yet but “soon”.

The R cameras seem to have some innovative design features in a compact rigid camera.

If you have any specific questions I will try to answer them. Hope this helps.

Steve
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schaubild

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 12:53:07 am »

I have read that the lenses you will work with need to be calibrated at Arca's premises like with the other camera manufacturers. A logical step with the small tolerances required for digital wideangle photography.
If this really is more cost efficient and with the same concerns about the useability of a universal helical mount I still have some doubts about the camera. Maybe too many innovations/compromises in one step?
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rethmeier

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 02:05:10 am »

Is there lateral shift at the back?
That would be very useful for stitching.
When I stitch ,I prefer the lens to stay put.
Look forward seeing a bit more of this camera.
It could be a nice alternative of the Alpa XY.
Cheers,
Willem.
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Lust4Life

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 07:52:55 am »

Quote
The single axis tilt mechansim is operated with the bright finished wheel below and to the right of the finder (viewed from the front) and seemed precise as well. One concern with any of the digital back cameras with tilt movement is the ability of the adjustment center detent to accurately return the lens standard to null posisiton when desired. This would be a concern of mine with this camera (as well as all the others I have seen) and would need to be evaluated with hands on testing.

The viewfinder was really quite nice and an improvement over others that I have seen recently (Alpa, Horseman, etc). It incorporates some (fixed?) lenses and a telescoping front housing that is set for the focal length in use. The front housing has a magnetically attached framing mask for different formats. The framing mask can be shifted to model the shifts applied to the lens or back standards. The mask shifting on the demo unit was uncalibrated but I suspect calibration marks could be incorporated easily.

Steve
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Steve,

Thanks for an excellent description of what you saw!

Your comment about the tilt is what I'm also worried about.  I've found the digital backs to be totally unforgiving on tolerances!

From what I understand, every lens must be calibrated (in short, purchased) from Acra in Europe.  Now, with tolerances that critical, I've wondered about the case where you accidently hit the front of the lens/camera with a tree limb while working in the field, or even just it handle it roughly in the camera bag.  What is the risk of knocking the calibration out of whack?  When we are talking about such close tolerances, it won't take much.

In short, this is one very expensive rig (Over $10,500 with just one 35mm lens and the optical viewfinder, not the electronic!) and yet if it can live up to it's claims just might be worth it.

Jack

Steve Stayton

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 12:34:55 pm »

The Arca Rm3d has a horizontal back shift of +/- 10mm. This seems a little small to me for stitching. The lens standard has vertical rise of 20mm and fall of 5mm. Again, not too suitable for stitching. The camera can be easily oriented upside down to give the larger shift in the downward direction if required. The lens standard moves relative to the camera body (and therefore tripod mount) so that is not ideal for stitching. They plan to offer an offset lens board with built in 10mm additional shift.

The RL3d has slightly more travel but I don’t recall the exact values. I requested pricing and literature since they don’t have a website.

My impression of the Rm3d was that is was rugged enough for field use but that would need to be verified with user testing of course. My biggest concern would be retention of the tilt adjustment zero detent accuracy. Many questions remain about the functionality and integration of the E-Module with this camera and the devil is in the details with a system like this so many questions remain about how effective it will be in use.

The Alpa booth at PhotoPlus had a prototype tilt module for the Alpa-12 series that provided a single axis of lens tilt. It was a module that fit between camera and lens and required the lens to be mounted in a shortened lens board. The tilt module was functional but uncharacteristically primitive for Alpa and not of durable design and construction in my opinion. It it was described as experimental and not planned for release anytime soon. It had no center detent and no way to set to null position for zero tilt but for that purpose you can quickly replace the tilt module with a fixed spacer module that has the same gage thickness. I have to guess that they rushed to have something to show tilt capability in response to the Arca Swiss R camera.

Steve
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archivue

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 06:38:31 am »

Quote from: Steve Stayton
The RL3d has slightly more travel but I don’t recall the exact values. I requested pricing and literature since they don’t have a website.
Arca PDF RM3D RL3M Mline 2...

RL3D
shift in X 40mm /20/20
shift in Y 50mm /10/40
tilt 10°
body weight 1450gr

RM3D
shift in X 30mm /15/15
shift in Y 40mm /30/10
tilt 10°
body weight 1050gr

but, by removing one ring between the body and the lens, you can then ad the rotaslide in the back... so you have more stitching possibilities !

this is the only camera that can offers tilt with all lenses, a really precise focus ring with a sliding back.

You focus with the ring, and check composition on the ground glass !

The Sinar artech can't be used handheld...
The alpa offerings don't j-have a sliding back (i'm in love with GG composition), and no tilt
The Cambo RS 1000 no sliding back and no tilt under 45

so, i will probably buy an arca at the end of the year.... RL or RM that's the question !

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John Collins

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 08:00:56 am »

Quote from: archivue
Arca PDF RM3D RL3M Mline 2...

RL3D
shift in X 40mm /20/20
shift in Y 50mm /10/40
tilt 10°
body weight 1450gr

RM3D
shift in X 30mm /15/15
shift in Y 40mm /30/10
tilt 10°
body weight 1050gr

but, by removing one ring between the body and the lens, you can then ad the rotaslide in the back... so you have more stitching possibilities !

this is the only camera that can offers tilt with all lenses, a really precise focus ring with a sliding back.

You focus with the ring, and check composition on the ground glass !

The Sinar artech can't be used handheld...
The alpa offerings don't j-have a sliding back (i'm in love with GG composition), and no tilt
The Cambo RS 1000 no sliding back and no tilt under 45

so, i will probably buy an arca at the end of the year.... RL or RM that's the question !


Alpa does make an accessory tilt module although the Arca has more tilt. I'm with you on the sliding back. They made a sliding back model
in the past as a prototype, I believe, but it is not in production.


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Lust4Life

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 01:07:26 pm »

Interesting, I started this thread almost 2 years ago - apparently from the above posts, still not a single post in it from anyone who has purchased and is actually using the rig.

How about architectural shooters (since I'm planning on adding that to my topics of interest)?
Anyone one out there who purchased one and is actually using it?
Feedback?

Jack

jklotz

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Arca-Swiss Rm3D; anyone inspect in NYC?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 08:08:07 pm »

I spent some time with it at the show. It's a very interesting camera for sure. I don't know that I buy into this electronic measuring device 100%, as it's ultrasonic, and has a a 15 degree angle of view as opposed to a laser which would pin point. It seems to me this could be problematic unless your subject was flat and parallel to you. In my case, I prefer to shoot tethered to a laptop and use that to check focus, however, it was really cool to see and play with. It seemed extremely responsive, down to inches. The camera did seem extremely well built, but I wonder if having that much throw in the helical focusing ring would get irritating after a while.

I've asked my dealer, Capture Integration, to get one in to play with. Apparently the electronic "focus finder" is not available as of yet, but I do believe we will get a camera to test. I've got a Cambo wds at the moment, and am looking to upgrade. I'll be happy to report back with my findings if anybody is interested.

James

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