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Author Topic: Etiquette  (Read 9161 times)

wilburdl

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« on: October 21, 2007, 02:54:07 pm »

I like this forum. There are some thoughtful and inciteful comments. I'd hate to see it go down in flames like RG. I make mention of this because I'm noticing some posters getting overly emotional and increasingly critical in their responses. Let's keep it respectful.

If you wouldn't talk to your clients like that--you shouldn't talk to your fellow photog like that
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Rob C

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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 03:35:37 pm »

Quote
I like this forum. There are some thoughtful and inciteful comments. I'd hate to see it go down in flames like RG. I make mention of this because I'm noticing some posters getting overly emotional and increasingly critical in their responses. Let's keep it respectful.

If you wouldn't talk to your clients like that--you shouldn't talk to your fellow photog like that
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It has been the downfall of several other sites, even private ones; possibly it also has something to do with the difficulty of interpretation of someone else´s written word. What might seem funny or even clever to one writer might prove insulting to a reader - and so it goes on and on until somebody snaps and the party´s over.

Bear in mind too that not all writers are born equal - some are more articulate than others and others are also just bloody-minded; enjoy what you can while you can! I do believe, though, that this site is quite well run and there are folks with their fingers trained to hit the off button...

Ciao - Rob C

mahleu

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2007, 03:42:55 pm »

Even with the occasional snappy comment on here, this is by far the most polite forum i've come across.

I think it largely has to do with a predominantly older crowd (now there will be animosity), maybe I should say mature
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 04:20:19 am by mahleu »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 04:23:11 pm »

Quote
Even with the occasional snappy comment on here, this is by far the most polite forum i've come across.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree. And I think we owe a lot to Michael who gives the forum plenty of chances to self-correct before he jumps in to fix things.
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Lisa Nikodym

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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2007, 06:09:23 pm »

I've been around here for a number of years, and there are the occasional overly-emotional spats between limited numbers of people.  Eventually some go away and the rest calm down, and things go back to normal.  It just happens now & then.  No need to worry.  

And I agree with Rob C that people frequently misread the intention of someone else's post, because there are no facial and vocal cues to clarify intent.  It's one of the of the hazards of an online forum, and we all need to try to remember that and try to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of being quick to take offense.  People from different regions also have somewhat different ideas of what is acceptable polite behavior, and what one calls "rude" another might call "blunt"; again, we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt when possible.

Lisa
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marimagen

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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2007, 08:26:24 pm »

I agree with Lisa that people from different regions have different standards of behaviour. You've also noticed that quite a few people on this forum are not English native speakers. It takes more years to master a foreign language than a camera! People may sound blunt because they don't feel the 'nuances' of written English. I have joined this forum quite recently and I think it's one of the best around.
Marie
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2007, 08:52:06 pm »

Quote
I like this forum. There are some thoughtful and inciteful comments. I'd hate to see it go down in flames like RG. I make mention of this because I'm noticing some posters getting overly emotional and increasingly critical in their responses. Let's keep it respectful.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I personnally don't really have the feeling that the atmosphere is degradating here at LL. Overall, still the same sane and friendly bunch of people IMHO.

On the other hand, I feel that there might be less insighful posts than there were a few years ago. This might relate to the fact that the site has overall been less active as a result of fewer articles being posted.

Cheers,
Bernard

wilburdl

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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2007, 09:11:16 pm »

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I've been around here for a number of years, and there are the occasional overly-emotional spats between limited numbers of people.  Eventually some go away and the rest calm down, and things go back to normal.  It just happens now & then.  No need to worry.   

And I agree with Rob C that people frequently misread the intention of someone else's post, because there are no facial and vocal cues to clarify intent.  It's one of the of the hazards of an online forum, and we all need to try to remember that and try to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of being quick to take offense.  People from different regions also have somewhat different ideas of what is acceptable polite behavior, and what one calls "rude" another might call "blunt"; again, we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt when possible.

Lisa
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not necessarily worried just throwing up the caution flag. I agree that this is, overall, a well-mannered forum. Probably due to the number of professionals that post. I've just noticed that some posters go beyond the normal spirited debate, resorting to name calling.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 09:11:57 pm by wilburdl »
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Darnell
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Kagetsu

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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2007, 09:56:42 pm »

I've not been a member of the forum for long, but have been on various other forums (only one I actively)... I'm slowly making the transition to this place. I've found the individuals here to be more polite, and generally mature.

It seems people are actually more interested in taking photo's here, instead of the equipment that's used or what is coming out (not to say it isn't there, but it's nice not to have it as a main point).

I also appreciate how here it's more the whole process, more then just the photo itself. I don't think we'll see a problem (or a big one) with people getting too stroppy with each other.... As said, it might lean a bit like that at some stage in time, but will get over it quickly.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 03:03:13 am »

Quote
I like this forum. There are some thoughtful and inciteful comments. I'd hate to see it go down in flames like RG. I make mention of this because I'm noticing some posters getting overly emotional and increasingly critical in their responses. Let's keep it respectful.

If you wouldn't talk to your clients like that--you shouldn't talk to your fellow photog like that
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It won't be. There are enough regulars here who moderate others, and we all need moderation for some reason from time to time. Pretty good bunch here. Also, people where tend to "do" photography and don't have time to waste on trivial comments. We just take the good and ignore the bad.

This is one of my first lines of defense when I'm looking for insight into complex ideas, such as a thread I just started on what to offer clients, print or digital or both?

I had a girlfriend of mine visit me from Manhattan, NY a few months ago. She's a working photographer in the city. She graduated from The Ohio Institute of Photography and Technology and has worked in Manhattan for several years now.

Just to give you an idea how much this forum has to offer, she told me when visiting, after she assisted me on a shoot, that she was a bit pissed-off that she spent so much on school, and that she had been working professionally for a professional studio in Manhattan for two years, and that I knew more than she and her boss about lighting--not posing and other things. At that time I'd only been doing professional photography and people type photography for less than 2 years.

She asked me how I could have learned so much in less than two years, and I told her one of my best sources was this forum--and hours and hours reading and then doing boring practices alone, just watching light and such. If you have the drive to extract information, this forum is a gold mine because there are many semi and pro level photographers here willing to share their experiences and skills.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:34:17 am by dwdallam »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 09:56:21 am »

Amen! That's exactly how I feel about this forum.
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wilburdl

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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 12:25:05 pm »

Quote
It won't be. There are enough regulars here who moderate others, and we all need moderation for some reason from time to time. Pretty good bunch here. Also, people where tend to "do" photography and don't have time to waste on trivial comments. We just take the good and ignore the bad.

This is one of my first lines of defense when I'm looking for insight into complex ideas, such as a thread I just started on what to offer clients, print or digital or both?

I had a girlfriend of mine visit me from Manhattan, NY a few months ago. She's a working photographer in the city. She graduated from The Ohio Institute of Photography and Technology and has worked in Manhattan for several years now.

Just to give you an idea how much this forum has to offer, she told me when visiting, after she assisted me on a shoot, that she was a bit pissed-off that she spent so much on school, and that she had been working professionally for a professional studio in Manhattan for two years, and that I knew more than she and her boss about lighting--not posing and other things. At that time I'd only been doing professional photography and people type photography for less than 2 years.

She asked me how I could have learned so much in less than two years, and I told her one of my best sources was this forum--and hours and hours reading and then doing boring practices alone, just watching light and such. If you have the drive to extract information, this forum is a gold mine because there are many semi and pro level photographers here willing to share their experiences and skills.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah. My intent was to curb some of the name-calling I started to see from some members. I must admit, going to school for photography sucks. I never took a lighting class-the most the instructor ever did wastell me how to turn the stuff on  
Interacting with pros would have to be the single most valuable reason for using forums. That and the advent of cheap digital (relatively) has made for a renaissance in this field and a whole lot more competition. Not that I mind.
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Darnell
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James Godman

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 04:38:21 pm »

Quote
Yeah. My intent was to curb some of the name-calling I started to see from some members. I must admit, going to school for photography sucks. I never took a lighting class-the most the instructor ever did wastell me how to turn the stuff on   
Interacting with pros would have to be the single most valuable reason for using forums. That and the advent of cheap digital (relatively) has made for a renaissance in this field and a whole lot more competition. Not that I mind.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Photo school was the best thing for me and I got a great education.  Now that I teach a little bit, the fun starts after I show my students how to turn the equipment on.  Interacting with pros is also great and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Why not interact with pros and go to school?
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mikeseb

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 07:15:13 pm »

Whoever mentioned "maturity" as a factor in the overall civility and usefulness of LL forums is on to something.

"Maturity" of years--not sure; "maturity" in one's approach towards photography, definitely. Even visitors here who are new to photography seem more "serious" about it somehow; willing to learn; willing to receive the criticism / advice they request without defensive tantrum-throwing; willing to do their homework so that the give-and-take is just that, rather than all-take.

This is the greatest flaw with the forums at another well-known forum site I won't identify (your first two guesses don't count!): work is thrown up with no evidence of any care having gone into it; those asking advice have often made no effort to inform themselves to the minimum level needed to profit from said advice; anything other than hand-clapping high-five approbation results in whiny backbiting. It's as if the self-esteem movement has made it their home office.

See, what a nice forum that would let such a curmudgeon as me post something!
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wilburdl

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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 08:18:32 pm »

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Photo school was the best thing for me and I got a great education.  Now that I teach a little bit, the fun starts after I show my students how to turn the equipment on.  Interacting with pros is also great and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Why not interact with pros and go to school?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not exclusive but counterproductive. At least when you're commercial orientated in a Fine Arts program. One which shunned digital, exalted film and called Photoshop the devil (I miss those debates   ) I personally learned more joining ASMP.
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James Godman

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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2007, 08:27:49 pm »

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Not exclusive but counterproductive. At least when you're commercial orientated in a Fine Arts program. One which shunned digital, exalted film and called Photoshop the devil (I miss those debates   ) I personally learned more joining ASMP.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Okay, wrong school for you and I hope you dropped out.  ASMP is good too!
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Rob C

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2007, 11:18:49 am »

We´re drifing slightly off-topic here, but that´s okay too, in my book, and opinion might as well be passed when it´s relevant, so on to photo schools.

I had to spend time in one when I was doing my early photographic training - evening classes after work - and for me, in those days, it was a total waste of time. The tutors were tired employed photographers making an extra buck (that they needed the extra work spoke volumes) and heads were as firmly stuck in the past as ever. For example, we had to shoot a portrait setup using a wooden 4x5, this in the heyday of the Hasselblad 500C or even the Mamiya TLR! I´m sorry, but you proved nothing by being able to use one for a job for which it is the least appropriate tool.

The most depressing instant I recall was when the conversation, such as it ever was, got onto the subject of star photographers. I mentioned a certain respect for David Bailey, head honcho of the English school (fashion) of the era, to be treated to the tutor´s opinion that should he pohotograph like said Bailey, he would give up photography... yeah, right.

In the end, it seemed to me that photography school served no purpose whatsoever and that you would learn more at work or even as an amateur with a home darkroom.

Today, with digital capture and all the digital workflow that follows after the fact, I hold the opposite opinion which assures me that a photographic school that will teach you everything you need to know about Photoshop and getting the best out of a printer must be worth its weight in gold.

Forget teaching art - you can´t so why bother? Teach the mechanics or, in this case, electronics of the business. Teach the business of the business? Again, you either have that in you - the proper street- smarts - or you don´t.

Ciao - Rob C
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 01:08:07 pm by Rob C »
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djgarcia

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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2007, 01:20:44 pm »

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I personnally don't really have the feeling that the atmosphere is degradating here at LL. Overall, still the same sane and friendly bunch of people IMHO.
Friendly, sure Bernard, but SANE???!! Surely you jest!
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wilburdl

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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2007, 03:05:39 pm »

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The most depressing instant I recall was when the conversation, such as it ever was, got onto the subject of star photographers. I mentioned a certain respect for David Bailey, head honcho of the English school (fashion) of the era, to be treated to the tutor´s opinion that should he pohotograph like said Bailey, he would give up photography... yeah, right.

In the end, it seemed to me that photography school served no purpose whatsoever and that you would learn more at work or even as an amateur with a home darkroom.

Today, with digital capture and all the digital workflow that follows after the fact, I hold the opposite opinion which assures me that a photographic school that will teach you everything you need to know about Photoshop and getting the best out of a printer must be woirth its weight in gold.

Forget teaching art - you can´t so why bother? Teach the mechanics or, in this case, electronics of the business. Teach the business of the business? Again, you either have that in you - the proper street- smarts - or you don´t.

Ciao - Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I agree. The traditional model of teaching photography really needs to be redefined. It's obvious that technology has evolved in such a way that new features and skill sets need to be fully explored not tacked on as a footnote. I believe it would be a huge asset if they incorporated more business-centric courses--maybe a co-op program.

Customer service is another overlooked component. Not important to landscape/still life but for people shooters--it's definitely a skill. I originally illustrated and didn't have to interact with people much while creating but in composing and capturing a portrait--interaction is vital to getting "the" image.

I try to keep a lighthearted tone on set--if there are more people involved. For my editorial work It's usually just me and the subject. In that situation I'm more engaging--taking on a more journalistic role asking questions about their work. Still keeping that easy-going vibe. The best shoots are the ones where the conversation is steadily flowing.
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James Godman

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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2007, 06:17:24 pm »

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Today, with digital capture and all the digital workflow that follows after the fact, I hold the opposite opinion which assures me that a photographic school that will teach you everything you need to know about Photoshop and getting the best out of a printer must be woirth its weight in gold.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Rob-

I see where you are coming from, and I partially agree.  But I think that anyone with an interest can learn software on their own with a little experimentation and will.  And I also feel that learning software in conjunction with disciplined assignments and reasoned critique helps students become better photographers.

Further, and to your point that you can't teach art, its important for students to learn how to make a clean file and an excellent print, but for them to also take it much further and actually make great photographs, which has little to do with software etc.  Actually, I've seen first hand that most often the students that are so very concerned with learning every new piece of software or digital technique often take the least interesting photographs.  As an instructor, I strive to focus on why a photograph is excellent or average, and once the students obtain a certain mastery of craft, the age old considerations of light, subject, camera angle, and composition are of utmost importance.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 06:21:56 pm by James Godman »
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