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Author Topic: Best Small Format Printer For Ink Cost  (Read 26913 times)

Mark D Segal

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Best Small Format Printer For Ink Cost
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2007, 08:51:35 pm »

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Mark

This is the heart of the question I pose in the "Epson 3800 or 4880?" thread. 

Notwithstanding, in August you recommend elsewhere in LL to wait for the next generation Epson printers as you view the current crop as an interim generation.  I'm beginning to wonder how long it will be before a replacement for the 3800 will be announced (a 3880 or whatever).  Epson is now offering a $150 CDN rebate if you purchase before Dec. 21/07 a new 3800 plus $50 worth of selected paper (from a wide list). This effectively drops the price at Vistek to $1149 CDN (given their current sale price).  Is this usual for Epson on this type of printer?  Are they trying to clear stock or have sales slowed?  As the 3800 will, if I'm really honest with myself, suit my needs, this seems like too good a deal to pass up.  That is unless a replacement is announced in the next few months.  Could I wait a few months before buying?  Again if I'm honest, yes.  But there's that price.

Decisions, decisions.

David
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I still believe the current crop excluding the new 10880 is interim, and that the new 10880 is the new standard of Epson technology with a yet more advanced print-head, wider gamut and switchable black within a nine channel structure (instead of eight), hence no or trivial waste of ink. I believe it is only a matter of time before this new technology is embedded in smaller-size machines. The real question is the timing. Therefore my suggestion to wait is useful for those people who can wait. For people who need to buy something now, that recommendation is not useful. They need to chose now between what is available now. No one machine has it all. So it is a matter of ranking one's priorities and selecting accordingly. I have no idea whether the 3800 is on the way to being up-graded, or whether the current sale has anything to do with that. Maybe there is an overstock they are trying to sell-off. Not being an Epson insider I don't know, and if I were I wouldn't be allowed to say. The Vistek deal looks like good value for money - at Photo Plus Expo in New York City last week Epson's "show special" price until 4 PM last Sunday evening when the show closed was 1099 USD. So there you have it.

Mark

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jpgentry

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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2007, 09:43:27 pm »

My experience is very particular as you say, and I specified the printers and inks I am using that make it particular (but you are correct in saying that the media type used makes a difference.)  If you are doing photo or fine art printing using the IPF8000 with 700ML ink tanks OR the R1800 with MIS inks using any of the media these printers have been designed to utilize, your ink costs will be a fraction of the paper costs - PERIOD.  Indirectly I am recommending the MIS solution to the original posters question about how to cut costs on a small printer (or at least that was my intention if he reads between the lines.)  

If I wanted to consolodate to one printer on the market today, I would use the Swiss army knife of printers - the IPF5100.  This printer is good at just about everything and poor at nothing I can think of.  That said he was asking about a small printer and the 5100 is not small.

I have done my own cost analysis on all forms of printing (fine art and photo) but my point above is that MIS inks are cost effective enough to make analysis a fairly moot point.

As a side point I have been able to more easily blow any clogs out of the R1800 with the MIS inks than I was with the Epson inks.  The only problem I've run into is the yellow on the MIS inks being strong even after custom profiling.

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Your experience is particular and not a valid generalization. The cost relationship between ink, paper and amortization of the printer is affected by numerous variables which would differ between users, machines, ink type and media type. I have written extensively about this using data from my own Excel-based costing model developed for the Epson 4000 and the 4800 - you can find those articles in Luminous-Landscape essays.

Mark
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« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 09:55:00 pm by jpgentry »
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pollardd

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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2007, 10:13:59 pm »

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I still believe the current crop excluding the new 10880 is interim, and that the new 10880 is the new standard of Epson technology with a yet more advanced print-head, wider gamut and switchable black within a nine channel structure (instead of eight), hence no or trivial waste of ink. I believe it is only a matter of time before this new technology is embedded in smaller-size machines. The real question is the timing. Therefore my suggestion to wait is useful for those people who can wait. For people who need to buy something now, that recommendation is not useful. They need to chose now between what is available now. No one machine has it all. So it is a matter of ranking one's priorities and selecting accordingly. I have no idea whether the 3800 is on the way to being up-graded, or whether the current sale has anything to do with that. Maybe there is an overstock they are trying to sell-off. Not being an Epson insider I don't know, and if I were I wouldn't be allowed to say. The Vistek deal looks like good value for money - at Photo Plus Expo in New York City last week Epson's "show special" price until 4 PM last Sunday evening when the show closed was 1099 USD. So there you have it.

Mark

Mark
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Mark, I appreciate your candor and agree the logical decision, assuming one has the time, is to wait.  I realise also that if you did know, you would be bound by a non-disclosure contract.  There comes a time when one has to get off the pot and make a decision.  Through forums like this, one hopefully can make an informed decision.

Thank's for your input.

Regards,

David
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2007, 04:40:51 am »

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I still believe the current crop excluding the new 10880 is interim, and that the new 10880 is the new standard of Epson technology with a yet more advanced print-head, wider gamut and switchable black within a nine channel structure (instead of eight), hence no or trivial waste of ink. I believe it is only a matter of time before this new technology is embedded in smaller-size machines. The real question is the timing. Therefore my suggestion to wait is useful for those people who can wait. For people who need to buy something now, that recommendation is not useful. They need to chose now between what is available now. No one machine has it all. So it is a matter of ranking one's priorities and selecting accordingly. I have no idea whether the 3800 is on the way to being up-graded, or whether the current sale has anything to do with that. Maybe there is an overstock they are trying to sell-off. Not being an Epson insider I don't know, and if I were I wouldn't be allowed to say. The Vistek deal looks like good value for money - at Photo Plus Expo in New York City last week Epson's "show special" price until 4 PM last Sunday evening when the show closed was 1099 USD. So there you have it.

Mark

Mark
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While the current printers are "interim", the reason they were introduced at all may indicate Epson does not think this new technology can migrate very quickly.  The 11880 print head is hand made, and supply is so limited that my dealer is only getting 2 of the 15  they ordered.  I'm sure this is the future of Epson, and eventually we will see similar head technology in all of their printers.  But the heads in the 4880,  7880, and 9880 are also redesigned and improved ... why spend the resources for that if you feel you could get the other technology to market in 4 or 5 months?

I think a 3880 may be in the cards much sooner than that ... it makes sense.  But it may be awhile before the 11880 technology migrates down.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 05:01:40 am by Wayne Fox »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2007, 09:47:36 am »

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While the current printers are "interim", the reason they were introduced at all may indicate Epson does not think this new technology can migrate very quickly.  The 11880 print head is hand made, and supply is so limited that my dealer is only getting 2 of the 15  they ordered.  I'm sure this is the future of Epson, and eventually we will see similar head technology in all of their printers.  But the heads in the 4880,  7880, and 9880 are also redesigned and improved ... why spend the resources for that if you feel you could get the other technology to market in 4 or 5 months?

I think a 3880 may be in the cards much sooner than that ... it makes sense.  But it may be awhile before the 11880 technology migrates down.
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Wayne,

We don't know how long it will take for the 11880 design to migrate down to smaller sizes. I can't see hand-made printheads being the future of Epson. Perhaps they haven't finished crafting or testing normal manufacturing processes for this new head design, and perhaps there is uncertainty within Epson about when they will be ready to go to market with production volume on smaller printers that have a larger demand base. Faced with that there's nothing wrong or surprising about bringing their latest production-ready technology to market. But based on the history of new model release timing, it doesn't necessarily mean we are a very long time away from the subsequent model set. I think 4 to 5 months from one model to the next would be a real stretch even for this fast evolving industry, but within a window of 9 to 18 months from now would be credible.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2007, 11:01:11 am »

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While the current printers are "interim", the reason they were introduced at all may indicate Epson does not think this new technology can migrate very quickly.  The 11880 print head is hand made, and supply is so limited that my dealer is only getting 2 of the 15  they ordered.  I'm sure this is the future of Epson, and eventually we will see similar head technology in all of their printers.  But the heads in the 4880,  7880, and 9880 are also redesigned and improved ... why spend the resources for that if you feel you could get the other technology to market in 4 or 5 months?

I think a 3880 may be in the cards much sooner than that ... it makes sense.  But it may be awhile before the 11880 technology migrates down.
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Everything in Epson's recent models suggests the same: their piĆ«zo head nozzles are far more expensive than thermo head nozzles. While they can squirt variable droplet sizes the  price is way higher than the price of the Canon or HP nozzles of this MEMS fabricated generation. The variable droplet sizes do not compensate the much higher nozzle numbers on the HP or Canon heads, there are no nozzles to replace ones that under perform, most printer configurations still have no satisfying gloss<>matte switch, the 11880 could have a gloss enhancer added if they had punctured the 10th channel in that head assembly, and we still have to see the speed of the 11880 compared to the Canon iPF9000 or the HP Z3100 or Z6100 at equal quality.
I doubt there will be a 3880 with 11880 head technology, the head costs compared to the price the printer should fetch is getting problematic. Not just on the purchase but also in service costs. I see something similar in the Canon iPF5000/5100 too, to replace two heads costs as much as 90% of the purchase price but in that case it may only be one head you have to replace. On the HP B9180 the replacement can be  done much more gradually and the price is half of the Canon head price. It is simple, nozzle cost has to go down in competition with the other manufacturers. The days that costs like that could be compensated by ink costs + low ink economy in the printers is over too.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Ralph Barkin

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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2007, 05:37:01 pm »

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The differences in ink laid down on paper are not that high. There are limits in the coatings to allow that and color + black saturation has to be equal at some point.
The differences appear in keeping the heads in condition and the HP models seem to be most economic ones on that aspect. Then there's the ink swap loss for gloss and matte like on the Epson 3800, reduced compared to the Epsons above it (but the 11880) but still taking a lot of ink. As the thread starter has a Z3100 I think he will like the B9180 as well, shares the same ink and heads (but not all), isn't expensive to buy and economic in ink use.  Ink price is higher than the A2 models but there's a wider format available already with even cheaper inks.
Ernst Dinkla

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It seems each printers *do* differ in how much ink is used to print significantly. Take a look at those three cost comparison from three printer manufacturers:

[a href=\"http://www.pictureline.com/images/pdf/48,%2078,%2098%20cost%20per%20square%20foot.pdf]http://www.pictureline.com/images/pdf/48,%...uare%20foot.pdf[/url]
http://www.colorhq.com/pdf/canon/ipf80009000costpersheet.pdf
http://www.tastarsupply.com/files_reference/z3100_cost.pdf

They all use the standard 'N5' chart.

EPSON 9800
EPSON Semimatte Photo Paper (250) $0.65/square foot
Total cost $1.16/square foot - $0.65 (paper) = $0.51/square foot (ink only)
Per ml ink cost: $112 (street)/220ml=$0.51/ml
Approximately 1.0ml used per square foot

Canon IPF 8000
Canon Heavyweight Satin Paper $0.41/square foot
Total cost $0.573/square foot - $0.41 (paper) = $0.163/square foot (ink only)
Per ml ink cost: $280 (list)/700ml=$0.40/ml
EPSON use approximately 0.41ml used per square foot

HP Z3100
HP Premium ID Photo Satin Photo Paper $0.477/square foot
Total cost $0.867 = $0.39/square foot (ink, includes print head cost, about $0.02) + $0.477
Per ml ink cost: $70.55(list)/130ml=$0.543/ml ($0.57/ml including print head cost)
Approximately 0.69ml used per square foot

It's obvious Canon has an advantage in ink cost aspect for having 700ml tanks, but surprisingly Canon also uses a lot less ink than either EPSON (more than 1/2 less) or HP (about 1/3 less), printing on similar surface paper. Of course, with EPSON's ink tanks you can get much cheaper than their street pricing (I usually buy one at around $90/220ml cartridge), so the actual cost may be much lower than this, but this shows they all use different amount of ink printing the same image. (Unless Canon would print noticeably lower density than the other two...) These are all big-format printers, so I am not sure if this would translate to medium format photo printers...

Ralph
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