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Peter F

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File naming conventions
« on: October 19, 2007, 09:49:34 am »

I am about to buy LR.  An educator's discount makes it an extremely attractive purchase, even for an amateur like me.  Just the crop tool and vibrance slider make it worthwhile as far as I can determine!

I currently use PSE5.0 and the Organizer that comes with it. In the past, I have set up my camera to show continuous image numbering and have never changed that number when downloaded to the computer. Sometimes I will add to the file name, such as DSCN_2452-Bridge800 to reflect an 800 pixel version of a bridge shot that I might be uploading to a web site.  And more specific cataloging of this image would be through the Organizers categories plus key words.  By keeping the original file name, should I wish to use Windows Explorer I can easily find things, as when I am uploading to Kodak Gallery for prints.

But I am willing to change my ways, if there is something better I should consider.

Are there some ideas on a "better way", once I add LR to my software inventory?

Thanks.

Peter F.
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allan67

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File naming conventions
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 10:19:17 am »

Hello,

If don't have it yet, get a copy of Peter Krogh's "The DAM Book".
The best reference for everything related to your digital assets and how to manage them.

Allan
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Ken Bennett

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File naming conventions
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 08:57:49 pm »

The only suggestion that I would have is that the filename DSCN_2456 repeats every 10000 exposures. That means you could have multiple files with that name, that are different pictures. You can see where this might be an issue down the road.

I would suggest putting together a specific naming convention that would do a couple of things: 1) it would prevent the same-name issue, and 2) might give some information about the content of the image. You could use the date as part of the filename, maybe a short descriptive word, and still keep the 4-digit frame number that came out of the camera.

My system is pretty simple: YYYYMMDDxxxxxxxx1234.sfx, with the date, an 8-character (or so) description, the frame number, and the file type suffix (.cr2, .jpg, etc.). Files get additional suffixes, such as "_web" or "_p" for web and print-ready versions, if needed.

There are lots of different ways to do this, depending on your needs.

--Ken
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madmanchan

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File naming conventions
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 07:49:26 am »

I use a method similar to Ken's: my filename is YYYYMMDD_HMS_model.extension.

Example: 20071019_083741_MG_2493.CR2

That's a raw from my 5D taken on October 19, 2007, at 8:37:41 AM, original filename is MG_2493.

Benefits:

- files sorted by filename will also be sorted chronologically (no problems with filenames rewrapping)

- glance at an image's filename tells me when it was taken

- all files have unique filename, even if taken within the same second at burst mode
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Eric Chan

sergio

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File naming conventions
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 02:24:24 pm »

I name files with date AND a descriptive word like the place, event, client, etc.

for example: 071022BOGOTA_xxxx.CR2 (last 4 digits of the original camera filename).

It works fine and very easy to date organize, and at a glance you know what image it is. Using the only date method is a lot harder to know what file you are talking about.

The date lets you have several shoots with the same descriptive word such as your clients name. Then you simply sort out by date. And having the last 4 digits of the original file instead of reseting the counter to 0001 is very helpful when you have trouble with files and have to redownload for the card, downloaded and forgot or didn't have time to rename, or whatever issue might arise, you still can easily relocate the original file.
Works for me very well. And don't let the filename be longer than 31 characters including space and underscores. And try to only use underscores, no commas, no periods, no question marks, to be sure you won't trouble archiving and burning media.

My 2 cents.
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Monito

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File naming conventions
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 04:50:27 pm »

YYYYMMDD-hhmmss.CR2 in hierarchical folders:  Raw/YYYY/MM/DD.

That way if I have a web image 20071021-142702-w500.jpg, I can go to the original Raw directly, or the intermediate finished 20071021-142702.jpg in the Procd hierarchical folders, just as directly.  Original camera file names are meaningless and should be dropped during the downloading process.  Good downloaders like DIM 4 automagically do the renaming and directory (folder) creation and simultaneous copying to external drive.

Use keywords inside the files for the real keywording.

Make a shoot list in a text file, sorted on date with entries like:

2007-10-21:  Yosemite Valley, Hwy 41, fall colors, oak, dogwood, aspen, river, El Capitan, meadow, haze, Jim, test 24mm.

Then you can scan or search the shoot list quickly without invoking a heavyweight program or a heavyweight search.
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Nat Coalson

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File naming conventions
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 08:41:25 pm »

Many people use the date as the first part of the name, but I use the subject/location first, because that means more to me than when the picture was taken.

I have a friend (whom I have to qualify as very smart) who thinks that the mass acceptance of database-enabled programs (like Lightroom) makes precise file naming irrelevant. I disagree... In dialog boxes, search fields etc. it's faster to type a few letters of the subject name than to try and remember when exactly it was made.

When formulating your naming convention, consider how you will retrieve files when no search/database/preview etc. is available. For example, in "Save As...", "Open", dialog boxes etc. Also, if you're putting your work online, search engines pay attention to the file names.

An example of my file names:
Jordan_Pond_071014_0008.dng

SubjectOrLocation_YYMMDD_4digitSerialNo.filetypeextension

All the images from this shoot will be in a folder called
Jordan_Pond_071014

... and when I create the Master File for Photoshop editing, I just add _M:
Jordan_Pond_071014_0008_M.dng

...a derivative flattened TIFF:
Jordan_Pond_071014_0008_F.tif

...and a JPG at 720 pixels max in either dimension:
Jordan_Pond_071014_0008_720px.jpg

This way, I can look at a list of file in the Finder/Explorer and know exactly what they are.

Be careful of file names that get too long, though....will cause problems in some applications.
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Monito

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File naming conventions
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 10:21:50 pm »

Keywording in file names is fine for a few pictures.  But when people have tens of thousands of pictures spanning years, then it becomes cumbersome.

Where do you file the wedding party where all the participants dressed as players or cheerleaders?  Under football or under weddings?  These issues tend to proliferate.  What if they were taken at a particularly noteworthy fountain in Central Park?
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Monito

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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 10:43:09 pm »

Another advantage of date-time stamping filenames is that shoots made with multiple cameras can be correlated and end up sorted in time sequence.
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John.Murray

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File naming conventions
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 10:45:40 pm »

I would respectfully disagree, in part, with Nate:

anything that would tend to slow down the import process is in my mind undesireable and causes potential for either mistakes, or situations where your chosen naming convention doesn't work.

For a great description of a high volume capture workflow see the Downloading and Storing Photos section of Nathan Myhrvold's article:

http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/Safari-Tips.shtml

I discovered and have used Downloader Pro pro based on Nathan's article.  It is without a doubt the best $30 I have spent:

http://www.breezesys.com/Downloader/index.htm

It not only supports any naming convention you choose, it also supports multiple cameras, etc etc.  The thing that is most attractive to me is that it completely automates what is otherwise a timeconsuming chore . . .

As far as filenames, I personally base the start of mine soley on date and camera.  As per Nate, I will append descriptive information onto post processed derivatives.  

I'm happy to associate "keywords" and tags via a database solution such as Lightroom.   The result of this approach is that Downloader Pro just works for me as soon as I insert media into the reader . . .

Associating a "shoot" with a particular "date";  I personally use a calendar and journal application on my computer, don't you?  Of course this is in addition to my preference, Lightroom.  I keep audio recordings made with along with (thanks to Nathan again) gps logs in my journal.

Nate's suggestions regarding search are well taken, however Modern O/S Filesystems are on the cusp of allowing meta-data searches in any case.  Look at Vista's built-in photo gallery, or even Google's Picassa which effectively catalog and index photo file metadata information - these capabilities will soon be a native part of Mac and Win Filesystems in the same sense that individual filesystem cluster locations are completly abstracted from us today.

The bottom line is arriving at a convention that you are comfortable with, and, hopefully stands on it's own, allowing you to change your preferred application and/or workflow in the future.

hope this helps  . . . John
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 11:06:53 pm by Joh.Murray »
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john beardsworth

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File naming conventions
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 05:42:29 am »

Quote
I have a friend (whom I have to qualify as very smart) who thinks that the mass acceptance of database-enabled programs (like Lightroom) makes precise file naming irrelevant. I disagree... In dialog boxes, search fields etc. it's faster to type a few letters of the subject name than to try and remember when exactly it was made.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
By your friend's argument, files are irrelevant too - just suck the images into a black hole and trust the database.... That's a very high minded principle similar to the idea behind Aperture 1.0's vault or the LR beta's Shoots, and we all know how quickly they both did a complete U-turn on those concepts. In practice, we shouldn't trust black holes with our work, at some unknown future point we will move to another database, and in practice we look at files outside the database, in Explorer/Finder for example.

Anyway, while I agree with Nat on the importance of filenaming, I disagree on placing the subject first. Purists like his friend would say filenames need no description, but it's more important to be practical, and descriptive text is convenient for when you're seeing lists of files in Explorer/Finder or in other programs' dialog boxes. Appending though, not prefixing, and because that way you can always use the filename to sort in sequential order of the unique identifier. At any time the collection of images one is reviewing can consist of mixed subjects, or an individual picture might itself have alternative subjects depending on the usage - eg it may be an image of a dog species or a dog might happen to be part of the composition with the Eiffel Tower. You lose that sequential sorting if the subject's at the front. The text element is too amorphous to play an important part in the filename - it's for convenience so tack it on at the end.

I recommend YYYYMMDD_1234 description, so you have the true unique identifier in the date_number, and then the more loosely controlled text for convenience. The 1234 sequential number can be applied either before or after the shoot has been edited down. If done before, the renaming can be fitted in as part of the import task but your folder will have gaps once you've edited out the duds. If done after you've finished editing, then you have a sequential control and in the future can review the file list for completeness (assuming you never deliberately delete an original afterwards and  assuming you don't somehow lose images off the end of the sequence).

Some people like to prefix this with their own name, if it's short, or with their initials, and that can be handy when third parties get hold of the file. Obviously it's not very robust.

Some people also like to add a code for each camera body they use. It may be superfluous - most DAM programs show the serial number, while most adjustment software shows the model - but we're back to the Finder/Explorer argument. I don't, but I see why others might.

Something else I recently encountered was including a code for the compact flash card - so you can detect failures. The method was AB_YYYYMMDD_1234_BJ description, with AB being his name and BJ being the 36th CF card he'd ever used (AA-AZ = 26 plus BA-BJ = 10, total 36). I felt there was some validity to the idea as I've not yet seen any DAM programs or raw processors that retain the card serial number, but I don't see the need to have long term historical records of CF cards.

So YYYYMMDD_1234 description. With the description kept general, and after the unique identifier.

John
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digitaldog

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File naming conventions
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 10:33:36 am »

Quote
Many people use the date as the first part of the name, but I use the subject/location first, because that means more to me than when the picture was taken.

I totally agree and that's what I do. I want to look at the name and know what I shot, then the date. I build a folder first with that name (for example, just got back from the Photo Plus show. The folder I create on my Raid is called PPE 2007). I move all files into that folder from the cards. Import into LR but don't do naming yet (after I edit). When I throw away the images that stink, I use a name template that's based on the folder name! I really like that LR has a token called "Folder Name". Then if I have to move an image from one folder to another, my naming template updates that name based on where it lives.


PPE 2007_07October18_091.dng Is an example of a file name from this trip. I want to see the subject (PPE 2007), then the year and date and of course a three or four digit unique number and extension. Been working quite well for me both within and outside of LR.
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Ken Bennett

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File naming conventions
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 09:23:08 pm »

Well, I start with the date shot for a couple of reasons.

1. When I have a giant folder full of different images, they automatically sort in chronological order, since alphabetical=chronological. That's a good reason to use the YYYYMMDD format, by the way. If I started with the description, they wouldn't sort in any usable order.

2. I store my original RAW files in dated folders on my server. So today's photos are on the server in the folder 20071023, which is in the 2007 RAW folder. Each assignment is in a subfolder with a short descriptive phrase, so the photos from a shoot in an economics class would look like this:

Folder: 2007
     folder: 20071023
          folder: Econ Class
               filename: 20071023econ1234.cr2


There would be additional assignment folders in today's folder for each assignment. The filenames are handled during the download using Photo Mechanic, and all files are fully captioned and keyworded.

This makes it easy to go find the original RAW file if I have any version of it.
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Rusty

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File naming conventions
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 12:24:07 am »

Good discussion. The number of shots I have in LR is relatively small but growing rapidly at times. Every time I transfer a card to computer I put it in a folder named with that day's date yyyy-mm-dd format and reference LR to that location. I use the camera's file name which has a month-day component to it and keep that same name with any iterations of the image including derivitives such as greeting cards and the like. I also keyword in LR. Bottom line a windows search on the camera file name will find all versions of that image plus the comfort of using LR's tools as well.
What I am unsure of is what happens to LR's referencing when I export my keepers to a folder/subfolder system such as landscapes/nevada etc. something to experiment with but any advice is welcome as well.

Ian Menuru

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File naming conventions
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2007, 04:00:11 pm »

Yes. this certainly is a great discussion and lots of great ideas. Hopefully it has helped PETER F (the OP) as much as it has me. I too am just starting with Lightroom and organizing my big mess of many years trying various (and usually overly complex) filing methods - but afraid to start until now without a "perfect" method in mind. It is evident from all the generous contributions from the above posters that there is no one right way for everyone to name their files but what is clear, it is important for everyone to name them in a way that best suits their own needs.  Here are the important points I have picked out from all the suggestions (so far) to feel good about starting to get organized right now.

-The number one consideration is to be sure that the naming system I chose will be usable in the future WHEN (not IF) I change programs or platforms. It must be easy and make sense to me and be easily transferable. Thank you for that Joh.Murray.

- Both Lightroom and the OS display files and folders alphabetically and that has stood out to me as very significant in file naming. The most important file descriptor (whether Date/Shoot or Shoot/Date)  therefore  should be at the front of the file name so all the most important types will be together chronilogical in the list. I can also make other criteria equally important and easy to find with the use of well named folders. If, for some reason, I have to find specific photos without Lightroom (and keywords) I can still use my OS by searching with * and ? wildcards and then I still have the thumbnail view available in any graphical OS to zero in on my choice. That makes keywords in the file name significantly less important.

- I like the idea of the extra information added as a suffix to the most important part of file name rather than in the middle or at the front. That keeps all the derivative files grouped together with the master photo in the list rather than in separate folders like I have been doing.

-It is also important to not use charcters in the filename or name lengths that may cause grief with some software. Thanks for that sergio.

Thank you all for your contributions. Even the methods that are good for you but not good for me have helped me make an informed method that is "PERFECT" for me.

Now off I go... to REORGANIZE with confidence. Thanks again.

Cheers

Ian

PS: As a matter of interest, here's what suits [U]me[/U] best:

yyyymmmdd_shoot####suffix.file type extension
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GregW

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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2007, 11:46:39 pm »

I like to keep file names short yet descriptive so ditch the underscores and use an uppercase letter between words which a Unix OS like Mac OS will respect.

20071115LuminousLandscapeExample.xxx

That example is a bit long, but you get the idea
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James R

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File naming conventions
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2007, 01:58:51 am »

Dates are less helpful to me.  I use descriptive names with dates.  I file these in folders.  The parent folder is named for the year, 2007.  Subfolders are named for the type of shoot, with a subfolder for the specific shoot (2007>Sports>XX HS Football 11222007.)
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