Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!  (Read 9529 times)

AndreNapier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • Andre Napier Photography
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« on: October 10, 2007, 07:28:05 pm »

At times we all shoot items that are trademarked by companies that did not solicited the advertising from us. Who did not shot pretty girl with Bebe Logo, boy with DG belt, kid holding a Coke can etc.
As we progress through the level of photography that we produce this "innocent" pictures are starting to look like actual campaigns for the company. And this brings us to a point when we can become liable for some big damages. I just had my copyright attorney research this issue with its relevant cases in US Federal Courts. Merely by putting an image on your website photographer hands himself into the mercy of big corporations who at their discretion may opt to sue him/her for serious damages. Sue and win at 85% ratio. It does not matter that you purchased that coke and thus for it is your property. It does not matter that you did not make any claims as to be Coke photographers or shooting for them. If to a average person in the jury it looks like a Coke advertising you are screwed. I thought I share it with you guys as I am very surprise by that and very much want to hear your comments. I believe that it belongs to MF forum as we are the most likely the one to produce work that would qualify for litigation.
andre
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 07:30:03 pm by AndreNapier »
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 07:45:37 pm »

You have to remember that a lot of corporations use scare tactics, and threaten legal action even when they have no legal grounds.

Look at http://thepiratebay.org/legal for example. They receive all sorts of threats with no foundation and write some pretty amusing replies.

Don't be bullied!
Logged

pixjohn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 716
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 07:48:00 pm »

Interesting topic but does your attorney have any actual cases to reference. This would be a better topic at APAnet to discuss.
Logged

AndreNapier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • Andre Napier Photography
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 01:37:01 am »

Quote
You have to remember that a lot of corporations use scare tactics, and threaten legal action even when they have no legal grounds.

Look at http://thepiratebay.org/legal for example. They receive all sorts of threats with no foundation and write some pretty amusing replies.

Don't be bullied!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I very much do not want to bullied. Matter of fact I hate to be bullied. I also understand the complexity of applied law and the Good Will aspect of it and the fact that my attorney is not even the top notch guy and guru in this field. I just very much want to know how does other photogs apply it in real life. I will try to get some cases that he was quoting but as you all know everything is billed by hours, and you have money only as long as you do not need a lawyer.
Andre
Logged

godtfred

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 293
    • http://
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 08:50:58 am »

Quote
I very much do not want to bullied. Matter of fact I hate to be bullied. I also understand the complexity of applied law and the Good Will aspect of it and the fact that my attorney is not even the top notch guy and guru in this field. I just very much want to know how does other photogs apply it in real life. I will try to get some cases that he was quoting but as you all know everything is billed by hours, and you have money only as long as you do not need a lawyer.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have been thinking about this myself but not got myself around to checking up on it, thanks for the heads up!

 

-axel
Logged
Axel Bauer
godtfred.com H2|M679CS|P45+

condit79

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 70
    • http://calebcondit.com
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 09:36:33 am »

It really depends on how you present the image and what it's used for.  A work of art can contain whatever it wants, more or less, and depict it in all sorts of ways.  The photographer that shot copies of the marlboro ad come to mind on this one.  You see that online without issues.  Its all about HOW you use tradmarked items and if you use it to make an ad.  If it appears on your site or in your portfolio, its just a work of art you made.  If its an ad, a different story.
Logged

AndreNapier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • Andre Napier Photography
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 11:18:09 am »

I am in the process of searching hard data on this issue. It seems that deeper I go more likely I become to agree with Candit79 and disagreeing with my lawyers statement. I should have some more define answer in few days but for now it looks like all cases revolved around profit and loss of revenue on part of trademark companies. I may get to the point of retracting my statement so hold to your thoughts, please.
andre
Logged

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 12:03:21 pm »

Quote
It really depends on how you present the image and what it's used for.  A work of art can contain whatever it wants, more or less, and depict it in all sorts of ways.  The photographer that shot copies of the marlboro ad come to mind on this one.  You see that online without issues.  Its all about HOW you use tradmarked items and if you use it to make an ad.  If it appears on your site or in your portfolio, its just a work of art you made.  If its an ad, a different story.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I trust you are a lawyer to make such bold, far-reaching statements?

sbernthal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 217
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2007, 12:23:44 pm »

Specific laws differ according to country.

Generally, it is not news that a commercial logo appearing in a commercial picture without the owner's approval, is grounds for a copyright lawsuit.

However, the question is when will the owner have incentive to sue.
Clearly almost all cases are not exhausted.

A lawsuit is likely only when the usage of the logo is such that will conceivably aggravate the owner, e.g. if the photograph is controvercial, or if the logo appears in the picture without plausible justification.
Logged

Diapositivo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
    • http://
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2007, 03:15:18 pm »

Just to make an example, in Italy where I live, every book shows a writing saying that ANY unauthorized usage of the book is strictly forbidden etc. etc.

Problem is, publishers and authors can write whatever they want on their books (or press releases or whatever) it is the law which dictates what is acceptable use and what is not.

I have recently read an article, wrote by a US lawyer on a US photo web sites (I tried to find it on the internet but I did not manage). It explained what the principles are and how unsubstantiated are metropolitan legends regarding copyright. The picture she was making would be perfectly adequate also in Italy, and I guess a bit everywhere. My University course would be described in the US as "Economics and Law" so I am not totally unaware of the general issues on the table.

The "legends" or let's say the common misconception of the high risks involving having a registered trademark on your pictures are caused by the kind of abovementioned wording in book, press releases etc. which give a very false impression of omnipotence by copyright/trademark owners.

There is a more general problem because juridical language is technical and specialistic, but everybody believes they can understand what they read (it sounds like normal English) and they end up thinking that they cannot say or write "Apple" or "Window" without paying a copyright to somebody. The internet then spread those legends very fast.

Basically, in every jurisdiction, you can go to the judge if you have undergone a damage for which you ask compensation, whether it be for an actual damage of image or for a loss of revenue.

Besides, any firm, just like any citizen, has the right to decide whether (or at which conditions) its image can be used for any commercial purpose.

Some examples: if I publish a picture of a square in Paris and there is a McDonald's restaurant there, the sign will certainly be visible (possibly the only yellow spot of the picture) but that is a picture of that square as it is and the restaurant belongs to the square, just like the fountain and the bench. The picture has a documentary value: Jefferson Square as it was in 2007, or an artistic value, whatever. It is not used in an advertisement.

Similarly if I publish a picture of a table with various food, and a bottle of Coca-Cola, the bottle is visible, recognisable, but it is not the main subject of the picture. It is a picture of a table with plenty food not of a Coke bottle.

Now imagine two advertisements, one is for Alka-Seltzer, it shows a person getting out of a McDonald's, the McDonald's sign is prominent, and the ad says: "Next time you eat things you cannot deal with, get and Alka-Seltzer", then you are obviously making a damage to McDonald's, and you will be sued.

Again, imagine a table with the food and the Coke, and a wine producer consortium quoting Brillat-Savarin's words: "A meal without wine is like a day without sun", and concluded: "Drink wine. Bring the sun to your table".

Well, if you were Coke, you would sue because your brand is used to convey a negative message on the brand. You are the copyright owner of the brand, you don't want it to be used against you.

Now imagine the same ads, but in the first case it is evident that the person is eating in a fast-food, but a not recognisable one, in the second case, there is a "cola" drink on the table, but not a recognisable one. It is debateable where, or whether, McDonald's or Coke could sue (or maybe an association of fast food companies, of soft drink producers, in defense of the industry). That would be grey territory in Italy.

Also you cannot use some other brand to enhance your own brand. You sell Vacheron Constantin watches, and you show an ads with a person driving a Rolls-Royce, entering a luxury house, drinking some Veuve-Clicquot, sitting to see a TV set 4 meters long, and then you say some bullshit like "if you belong to a certain world, you belong to the world of Vacheron Constantin". Rolls-Royce and the other guys would sue you because you made an unauthorised use of their brand (of their property) for your profit. So they rightfully want control over how their brand (and therefore their identity) is used. Just like any person would have this right. They can just prevent you from using it, or ask you money for using it. You cannot use other brands to sell your products just like you cannot use my face (or anybody's, a celebrity face for instance).

The picture with the kid and a Coke is not free ground. In certain Countries like  Germany kids under 16 are not allowed to drink coffee, neither Coke, nor alcohol, neither beer (probably also in Italy, but the Germans take those thing seriously). Taking a picture of let's say a 10 years old boy with a Coke might convey a message which Coca-Cola might deem negative for its image, at least in certain Countries, because there would be something "wrong" in a 10 years old kid holding a can of Coke (just like in Canada would maybe "wrong" holding a can of beer). So why would you put a Coke in the hands of a 10 years old boy? What use are you going to do of it? What use other people might do of it?

If you take prepared shots with models, the easy thing is to avoid any trademark, in order to have a broader marketability for your pictures (which otherwise could not be used for commercial purposes, without consent).

If you just go in the road and take pictures, you don't care at all whether there is any sign somewhere (they are everywhere after all).

If I find the article of the US lawyer, I post here the URL.

Cheers
Fabrizio
Logged

condit79

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 70
    • http://calebcondit.com
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2007, 04:21:52 pm »

Quote
I trust you are a lawyer to make such bold, far-reaching statements?


I'm not a lawyer, just an informed photographer who is concerned about what I shoot, feppe.  As an artist, andy warhol made rendering of campbell soup cans.  There is a big difference in creating a work of art and making an ad.  The coke bottle shape is copywrited,  but in the end its all about usage, intent, etc.  I don't find my statement bold, just the honest truth.  If you place something in your portfolio and it contains trademarked objects, how is it not a work of art? (because with art, just about anything goes, check the precedents).  anyways..
Logged

Diapositivo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
    • http://
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2007, 04:38:03 pm »

A just found a detailed explanation of the subject, which should be accurate for the US and broadly accurate for other jurisdictions, is here:

http://www.danheller.com/model-release-primer

Cheers
Fabrizio
Logged

AndreNapier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • Andre Napier Photography
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2007, 04:59:55 pm »

Fabrizio,

In my research on this subject I read Dan's articles and we email each other on this subject.
I very much respect and value his input however as caution I need to state that Dan is not an attorney and thus for his articles might be used as a fellow photog advice but would not have any legal value in any potential defense.  I am researching this in depth using two independent law firms.
The issue is very complex and I have to say that unless you have some serious assets to loose the probability of litigation against you is very slim. For me it is just a quest for knowledge.
Andre
Logged

pixjohn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 716
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2007, 06:29:40 pm »

This has nothing to do with the topic. The link is about model release for people not objects.

Quote
A just found a detailed explanation of the subject, which should be accurate for the US and broadly accurate for other jurisdictions, is here:

http://www.danheller.com/model-release-primer

Cheers
Fabrizio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

pixjohn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 716
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 06:32:32 pm »

I still think APAnet would be the place to ask this question. APA has at least one lawyer reading the board and answering questions from time to time. I still think its an interesting topic just the wrong place to fined real answers.

Quote
Fabrizio,

In my research on this subject I read Dan's articles and we email each other on this subject.
I very much respect and value his input however as caution I need to state that Dan is not an attorney and thus for his articles might be used as a fellow photog advice but would not have any legal value in any potential defense.  I am researching this in depth using two independent law firms.
The issue is very complex and I have to say that unless you have some serious assets to loose the probability of litigation against you is very slim. For me it is just a quest for knowledge.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146196\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Monito

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 97
    • MonitoPhoto
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2007, 12:43:55 am »

Quote
At times we all shoot items that are trademarked by companies that did not solicited the advertising from us. Who did not shot pretty girl with Bebe Logo, boy with DG belt, kid holding a Coke can etc. As we progress through the level of photography that we produce this "innocent" pictures are starting to look like actual campaigns for the company. And this brings us to a point when we can become liable for some big damages. I just had my copyright attorney research this issue with its relevant cases in US Federal Courts. Merely by putting an image on your website photographer hands himself into the mercy of big corporations who at their discretion may opt to sue him/her for serious damages. Sue and win at 85% ratio. It does not matter that you purchased that coke and thus for it is your property. It does not matter that you did not make any claims as to be Coke photographers or shooting for them. If to a average person in the jury it looks like a Coke advertising you are screwed. I thought I share it with you guys as I am very surprise by that and very much want to hear your comments. I believe that it belongs to MF forum as we are the most likely the one to produce work that would qualify for litigation.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you for the thought provoking post, but two things occur to me:

1) It is easy to make sure that the context of the website makes it clear to even a sub-par jury that you are not advertising Coke.   For example, you can put several competing brands in one picture, or the can is incidentally held by a model and not shoved into the camera's face, etc.  You can take the same shot with a different brand can in the model's hand in the session and show the jury that the one you chose was for reasons other than product endorsement (i.e. lighting, expression, color match, pattern of condensation, etc.)  A picture in a portfolio or web gallery is one of many, where the intent is to advertise the photographer, not the product.  It would be clear that there would be no endorsement by the mega-corp of the photographer.  Juries tend to look favorably on single-operator small businesses being picked on by mega-corporations.  You can countersue for frivolous litigation and harrassment and probably have a better chance of winning than the mega-corp.

2) Your lawyer has a motive to make you fearful as a means of drumming up business.  The lawyer might not even be consciously aware of the extent of how this mechanism is operating, but in any case, is doing what lawyers are good at, namely finding problems not solutions.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 12:51:49 am by Monito »
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2007, 02:18:23 pm »

This is all quite interesting stuff, and in my time in the stock business (Tony Stone Worldwide, which became Getty) I always had to get releases for whatever I submitted.

However, those days are long gone, and a new use for pics crops up in the way of direct print sales and gallery sales and/or exhibition.

So, the big question is, does selling a print to a private person, or showing work in a gallery, require a model release, particularly when the pictures might be nude or semi-nude ones? This should be a straightforward and easy question, but somehow I doubt it will have such a simple answer - if anybody really can answer it in the first place.

Ciao - Rob C

Diapositivo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
    • http://
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2007, 02:40:46 pm »

Quote
This has nothing to do with the topic. The link is about model release for people not objects.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it is relevant because it explains the basic principle that it is he who makes usage of the picture that must ascertain whether he needs a license for that particular usage, a principle which is often misunderstood.

In the case which originated the thread, the question was whether should the photographer be worried about trademarks in the pictures, to which my reply was that, at most, it can reduce marketability.

I still can't find the article of the lawyer who was specialized on the subject and that I read not many month ago.

The question of how much (under which circumstances) you don't need a license to include a trademark (or a recogniseable  objects) to make usage of a picture is anyway strictly related to the license for a model as the same concept applies that a person or a firm cannot prevent you from publishing a picture of them in general, but can object only to the kind of usage somebody is making of the picture.

Until there is no usage, there is no ground for claim.
When there is usage, the user faces any claim, not the photographer.
Claims can be made for the kind of usage, not for the usage per se.

Cheers
Fabrizio
Logged

Diapositivo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
    • http://
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2007, 03:06:57 pm »

Quote
So, the big question is, does selling a print to a private person, or showing work in a gallery, require a model release, particularly when the pictures might be nude or semi-nude ones? This should be a straightforward and easy question, but somehow I doubt it will have such a simple answer - if anybody really can answer it in the first place.

Ciao - Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146403\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If the picture of the person has being taken in a public place, I suppose there is no need to have a license also if you sell pictures. I don't think Cartier-Bresson went around with model release forms. You see plenty of this kind of picture in the National Geographic, Airone etc when they write articles about exotic peoples, and again, I would say at 99% you don't need a model release in general.

Television often show persons in various public events (stadion, the road, the occasional interview on the road to the bypasser) and they don't need a model release. They would need it when the person can claim he has been defamated. You cannot claim you are being defamated because you are shown in a stadion.

On the other hand in every recurrent footage about the "problem" of prostitution car plates are always obscured for the very good reason that people might sue you if you show them while they go shopping for sex (and they might sue you even more where such an activity is illegal), car plates are never obscured if the TV just want to show the traffic.

If you photograph somebody naked, he probably was not walking in the road. In any case if the use you make is potentially defaming or is commercial (commercial = advertising a product or service) than you would need a license to protect you from a claim.

So let's say you want to make an exhibition on hospices for mentally ill persons, that would be obviously a sensitive use because you are damaging the "image" of the persons in the pictures so there is ample ground for suing you (in this case, it is you who make usage of your pictures).

Also you can't go to nudist places and take pictures of people in adamitic costume and then publish a book "a day on the nudist camp" because people in the book would have ample ground to sue you alleging that they are naked on the nudist camp and not everywhere, so their nudity is something private and showing it is defamating.

If you have a friend who posed for a naked service and she did not sign you a model release, I would be very wary of the kind of possible usage because she can later claim you told her you were supposed to show the picture to photographer's club and not selling them around or publishing them or putting them in the internet.

On the other hand if people is actually naked on the public road (as it happens in one of the gathering of hundreds of naked people which are organized by I don't know which photographer) then you don't need a license, you are taking pictures of a public event in the public road.

Ciao
Fabrizio
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Shooting Trademarked Items! You need to know!
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2007, 06:03:24 pm »

In the UK it is hard to defame/lible someone by an image - because the defence it always truth (assuming minimal PP)

Say with photos of people shoping for prostitiutes - there is no need to obscure !

But you are risking a shown person saying - I was just asking directions - and you have to be able to PROVE that was not the case !

It is the combination of context of use and the image that causes problems


Like using in an editorial situation with a caption 'men shopping for sex' - jsut using the picture could be fine

Also there is product endorsment in advertising - say a pic snatched of J'Lo drinking coke at a football game does not mean she endorses the product - but you could still use it in social or news pages of editorial

It is the publisher who needs to be careful - not the photographer - (exept photographing kids which in the UK is a no go without permission)

in terms of logos and copyright - in the UK I think it breaches copyright if it is - the 'significant content of the image'

---

At what point would you feel your copyright was breached..

Say you had a front page magazine picture

A photo of a newstand with that magazine -no

A photo of a person reading the mag - maybe

A full frame copy of the mag used to illustrate the same story as your image - yes

The point is where the secondary image would work without your image -  maybe

I have had my pictures waved by TV presenters in the 'review of the papers' section of some news programs  ...

Me thinks shoot first worry later (exept with kids!)

I also think it is important to encourage all to shoot first worry later because without standing up for this right it will become eroded (and history will be lost)

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK
Pages: [1]   Go Up