What paper for B&W printing?

[domsemaca]

I am wondering if someone with good experience can help me find a good paper to print some B&W digital files.
I will be using a printer converted to Piezography inks (Joe Cone), and i tried some sampler papers from Epson and Ilford.
They look good but as the digi files are really good at showing really brilliant whites and deep blacks i am curious if anybody has a favourite paper that can enhance this contrast.
Anything besides Glossy media.
The prints are all mountainscapes with snow, storm clouds and bare rocks.
If curious to have a look at some this is a link.
Pics

Thank you

[Josh-H]

I am wondering if someone with good experience can help me find a good paper to print some B&W digital files.
I will be using a printer converted to Piezography inks (Joe Cone), and i tried some sampler papers from Epson and Ilford.
They look good but as the digi files are really good at showing really brilliant whites and deep blacks i am curious if anybody has a favourite paper that can enhance this contrast.
Anything besides Glossy media.
The prints are all mountainscapes with snow, storm clouds and bare rocks.
If curious to have a look at some this is a link.
Pics

Thank you
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Crane Silver Rag. 300 weight no  OBA's rag paper with a great DMAX.

[Geoff Wittig]

I am wondering if someone with good experience can help me find a good paper to print some B&W digital files.
I will be using a printer converted to Piezography inks (Joe Cone), and i tried some sampler papers from Epson and Ilford.
They look good but as the digi files are really good at showing really brilliant whites and deep blacks i am curious if anybody has a favourite paper that can enhance this contrast.
Anything besides Glossy media.
The prints are all mountainscapes with snow, storm clouds and bare rocks.
If curious to have a look at some this is a link.
Pics

Thank you
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you're committed to using Piezography BW inks, you are limited to matte papers, as these inks show ghastly bronzing on any gloss/satin papers. This in turn places a strict limit on the deepest D-max you will be able to acheive. Jon Cone's system does give beautiful tonal transitions, so the mid-tones and 3/4 tones will look great. You may want to experiment with a sample pack of cotton rag papers to see which combination of paper texture, native paper color and acheivable D-max works best with your specific images.

At least in my experience, papers free of optical brighteners like Epson's ultrasmooth will have a warm or off-white paper base that limits the brightest white you can get, and forces your highlights to be relatively warm toned. I was reasonably pleased with black & white prints on Hahnemuhle photo rag and Somerset velvet enhanced, until I saw the much deeper D-max acheivable using photo black ink on coated papers. I'm currently using HP's professional satin photo paper on a Z3100; the blacks are far, far deeper. For me that's a good trade-off for its less "arty" hand feel compared to a 100% cotton rag matte paper.

For what it's worth, I tried two generations of Piezography BW inks and finally gave up in frustration due to repeated head clogs and inflexible toning. I believe that Cone's theory was to use the native paper color to set the highlight tone, while using the limited inkset choices (selenium/cool/sepia) to set shadow & midtone color. I found this too rigid for my work. I also found that Cone's first generation inks aged to an ugly greenish tone on many papers, with serious fading of D-max over time. Now that mainstream printer companies like HP and Epson provide thoroughly acceptable black & white options right out of the box, I don't think Cone's system is worth the expense and hassle.
YMMV.

[Roscolo]

I'm currently using HP's professional satin photo paper on a Z3100; the blacks are far, far deeper. For me that's a good trade-off for its less "arty" hand feel compared to a 100% cotton rag matte paper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144798\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I will second that. The B&W prints done on HP Satin with the z3100 are the best B&W prints I've seen, period. I'm printing some images now 32"x40". I add just a slight bit of warmth to mimic a warm tone paper. Matted and framed people cannot distinguish smaller versions of these prints from prints from the same negs I produced on Ilford Fiber Warmtone in the darkroom!

[TylerB]

...I also found that Cone's first generation inks aged to an ugly greenish tone on many papers, with serious fading of D-max over time. Now that mainstream printer companies like HP and Epson provide thoroughly acceptable black & white options right out of the box, I don't think Cone's system is worth the expense and hassle.
YMMV.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144798\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that first generation was long long ago. This is comparable to dismissing Ultrachromes because of the 1280 dye ink debacle.
You may have your own viable reasons for using the out-of-the-box solutions, which have surely come a long way, and can give fine results.
However, while the OEM solutions evolved, the monochrome ink systems did too.
I spent the large part of a day with a fine photography couple who had a 7800, and a lot of nice ABW driver UCK3 B&W prints laying around. They purged and installed a Cone NK7 inkset. It took very little time, perfect nozzles right off the bat. QTR and the supplied profiles installed and worked imediately, and with ease. The first prints matched the monitor.
THey then made prints for hours from the same files used for the previous UCK3 ABW prints.
In every case, in every objective and subjective way, the NK7 prints were more impressive, it was not subtle.

I find a lot of opinions like these are from people unaware of the current systems. I find, also, that a lot of people have simply not seen good monochromatic ink B&W prints.
So called "photo" surfaces are best used with the most current OEM systems (I use them as well), soon we will have a Cone Selenium set to see on those papers as well.

Tyler

[Geoff Wittig]

Mr. Boley-

I will readily concede to your expertise on this point; I have no doubt that the latest generation of Cone inks and QTR driver/profile system will yield beautiful results. I was not completely satisfied with Epson's ABW mode with the K3 printers, finding tonal transitions too abrupt at both ends of the curve. So far I have been much happier with the Z3100 using carefully "tuned" files on selected papers. For the "casual" or hobbyist printer I think this is a great system, as it permits both color and really good BW prints on the same machine without ink swapping, with an excellent D-max.

The original poster expressed an evident desire to get a good dynamic range on paper, and since it is tuned for matte papers I'm not sure the current Piezography system can get him there. A Cone inkset tuned to photo paper may be the answer. There is surely a substantial monetary cost to that decision, and the printer is then truly committed to BW output. I defer to your greater experience on the subject.

[Brian Gilkes]

You must use a custom profile dedicated to monochrome. Color profiles are less than optimum.
True, Epson's Advanced B&W has a poor tonal scale.
Harringtons QT RIp is excellent , if limitations in toning colours and profiles are acceptable . Soft proofing with it is difficult.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

[madmanchan]

True, Epson's Advanced B&W has a poor tonal scale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Brian, can you please elaborate on this? What exactly do you mean by "poor tonal scale"? I'm just trying to understand the shortcomings.

[TylerB]

Geoff, I'd say the Z3100 is better, and viable for even quite demanding printers, than for just casual users. I just wanted to keep the knowledge base up to date about the various systems since Cone was mentioned. As you say, the photo surfaces that the original poster is asking about, are best served by these new OEM solutions as of today. Others are attempting things with the 3rd party mono inks on those papers and then spraying, not something I think is healthy.
We have some rapidly developing products in this area these days, a good thing.
Tyler

[Brian Gilkes]

Brian, can you please elaborate on this? What exactly do you mean by "poor tonal scale"? I'm just trying to understand the shortcomings.


Eric,
ABW seems to compress at ends of scale, particularly in shadows. I've also noticed shadow clipping . There is probably a work around eg by replacing Same as Source on output  with a custom profile or adjusting preparatory curves . I just haven't had time ,and get pretty good results with  B&W profiles on RGB, or by using QT RIP. I might have a go at the ABW profile option when an opportunity comes up . Almost all my experimentation is to try to solve client problems or improve file rendering, and the colour avalanche is on at present.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

[John R Smith]

Brian

 I don't quite understand this shortcoming of the ABW mode. I am printing from scanned B/W 120 film, and my Epson is giving me detail and separation in shadow areas that I can barely see with an 8x loupe on the original negative. In fact, sometimes it's an embarrassment, because I didn't want that detail in the print. In highlight areas, I could perhaps wish for a little more, but I have always considered that a limitation of the scanner, not the printer.

John

[nemophoto]

I've used Piezography inks for seven years. Though I'm considering replacing my aging 7000, which is loaded with Selenium Quad inks, I've found some excellent papers over the years to use with the Piezography inks. As a note: I have the very first print I ever made with the first generation Piezography inks. It was printed on an Epson 1160 on Hahnemuhle  William Turner (then called Conetech Wells River): no fading, no turning green.

A lot depends upon which printer and which inkset you're planning on using, as well as whether you plan to use QTR or StudioPrint (which is what I use) or even OPM/IJC. I generally always seem to return to Hahn. Wm Turner. Some hate it because of the texture, I like it and it has the best Dmax of any paper I've profiled/linearized with StudioPrint.

Of the newer papers, my favorite is Harman Mat FB. It gives you a very "modern" looking print on a bright mat paper. The Dmax isn't as high, but doesn't look like it and the apparent tonal range is higher because it's a brighter paper. Very clean looking images. some complain that the image is more prone to scratching. Personally, almost any printed image is delicate. I try not to perform the "brillo pad test" on any final prints. Unless you will be using the new Piezography MPS inks in a 7-8 ink printer (it uses a gloss optimizer), you can't print (at least easily) on a glossy paper. I've had decent success with Crane Silver Rag with the older quad inks, but it requires several days of very careful drying.

Nemo