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Author Topic: New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss  (Read 7324 times)

eleanorbrown

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« on: October 08, 2007, 01:14:06 PM »

Michael or anyone who has seen both of these papers--I'm really interested in the surface differences.  The word "stipple" always bothers me (as in the "Luster" papers).  I dislike stipple intensely and prefer the smoother feel of the Harman surface which I don't consider "stipple". Does this new Epson paper indeed have a "stipple" or "sparkle"?

Many thanks!! Eleanor

Brian Gilkes

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 06:18:15 PM »

My old book of Agfa papers has 26 varieties. At the time those were available there were also Gevaert, Leonar , Mimosa and lots of others as well as the perhaps better known Kodak and Ilford. Perhaps we are regaining some of the past. I remember one, I think from Mimosa, that had a surface like velvet. Matte with deep blacks. No-one seems to have attempted that yet. I suspect it would require a different ink technology.
Like Eleanor I think stipple is a no no. Similarly for the more heavily textured silk type surfaces.
Looking into the afore mentioned Agfa book, where I can see the surfaces, not just try to remember them, I would go for 113 White Matte,114 White Grained Matte 122a White Velvet,  125 Royal Chamois - actually most are pretty good except for 117 White Silk Grained and 137 Ivory Silk Grained. All these papers had a modernist photographic look. At that stage there seemed to be little interest in paper that loked like paper. Now we have paper from the traditions of etching, watercolour and ink brush painting .
I have just printed a book (lots of photos!) on Somerset White Book, that is very impressive. It's an uncoated paper from St Cuthbert's Mill in England . It is textured but where the pics are you just don't notice it. It just looks classy. DMax is only 2.25 but black looks deep. Colours require some tricky editing, but jump out with no sheen at all.
Choice of papers is getting pretty good . It's a matter of matching the paper to the project so paper enhances and does not subtract from the image.  I'd be carefull about dumping current favourites for new stuff. Crane Silver Rag, for instance , last years hot product , is now getting bad press in favou of the new (!) baryta based papers. I has  a "wet" look that I find suits many photographic images  eg landscapes and plants. The baryta based papers , I suspect , will suit different images or make the same images look different. It's a pretty subtle thing and most clients may just not recognise it . On the other hand there is something almost subconcious about why one image appeals and walks off the wall, and others. equally technically good,hang forlorn.
The right paper has a significant contribution.
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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jwjohnson

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 08:52:03 PM »

This paper sounds like it could be better than what we've got now, but I would like to see it prior to making any decisions.

One thing that really irks me is that Epson insists on selling most of it's cut paper in 17x22 or 24x30. If I'm trying to take advantage of the full width of my printer I would like 17x25 and 24x35 inch paper.  I usually end up using roll paper or non Epson paper for this reason.  It also looks like roll paper won't be an option with this particular paper.
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Schewe

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 11:43:33 PM »

Quote
Does this new Epson paper indeed have a "stipple" or "sparkle"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It pretty much looks & feels like a DWDM silver gelatin paper for surface...
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eleanorbrown

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2007, 12:06:25 AM »

Uhhhh---I'm a former silver gelatin printer but I don't know what DWDM (double weight....something) stands for.  Does it have a stipple of sparkle like the epson luster paper?  thanks again! eleanor

Quote
It pretty much looks & feels like a DWDM silver gelatin paper for surface...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Schewe

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2007, 12:18:56 AM »

Quote
DWDM[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

DWDM=Double-weight, dry matte as in a regular non ferrotyped F surface print...
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David Amos

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 11:35:14 AM »

Hello Brian

I'm interested in the Somerset White Book that you've mentioned, is it a double sided?

But the main thing is i've recently joined the "large format printing brigade" (an Epson 3800 so it's just the baby of the bunch) and would like to know where people here in the UK get there paper from.

David Amos
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TylerB

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 06:27:00 PM »

Eleanor, it's FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss on a bit of a thicker base.
Epson doesn't make paper.
Tyler
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eleanorbrown

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 06:38:59 PM »

Ah ha--interesting.  I didn't know that.  thanks tyler. eleanor

Quote
Eleanor, it's FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss on a bit of a thicker base.
Epson doesn't make paper.
Tyler
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

madmanchan

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 07:08:39 PM »

Quote
Eleanor, it's FibaPrint Ultra Smooth Gloss on a bit of a thicker base.
Epson doesn't make paper.
Tyler
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Tyler,

May I ask, where did you get this info from?
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TylerB

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 08:36:37 PM »

Quote
Hi Tyler,

May I ask, where did you get this info from?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric-
why yes you can








ok, sorry. What can I say, easily amused by myself.


I probably shouldn't say, but it'll be common knowledge as time marches on. It was a closely connected little bird, who trusts me to remain discreet.
I suppose it will distinguish itself from the Innova (nice paper by the way) with it's additional thickness, more like a darkroom paper. Since the base stock is a bit different, one might assume the surface will not be identical. So it still could be considered a unique product.
Tyler
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01af

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2007, 04:52:10 AM »

Quote
I probably shouldn't say ...
Most likely you shouldn't indeed ... but I guess hardly anybody will be surprised to hear Epson don't make their own paper. I'm sure Canon and HP don't either.

This leaves the question which differences there are between the original papers (e. g. FibaPrint in this case) and their Epson-branded varieties. Maybe it's exactly the same thing (possibly on a slightly different base), or maybe there are differences like for instance some sort of optimization for the Ultrachrome ink set that's unavailable under other brand names.

-- Olaf
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madmanchan

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2007, 08:50:52 AM »

The reason I asked was because there have been cases in the past where Epson used a common base but then applied a different coating, such as with Velvet Fine Art (the sheet form). It was using apparently the Somerset Velvet base but then a different coating, leading to a much deeper d-max with the Epson inks compared to normal Somerset Velvet. And supposedly VFA didn't come out in rolls (only sheets) because the coating didn't work so well in rolls. I was wondering if something similar might be happening here with the new Exhibition Fiber. Just curious.  
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David L. Robertson

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2007, 12:00:32 PM »

Is the new Epson Exhibition paper acid-free and OBA-free like the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl?  I found out recently that the Epson Enhanced Matte paper is neither, and I am always a little concerned when a paper manufacturer does not tout those facts in its press release.
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madmanchan

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2007, 12:39:18 PM »

Am pretty sure that Exhibition Fiber contains OBAs, given that it's brighter and whiter than Harman Gloss (which does have OBAs).
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Craig Murphy

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2007, 01:47:02 PM »

Sounds like this paper would be a Photo Black ink paper as opposed to a Matte Black?
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CMurph

madmanchan

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 01:50:32 PM »

Yup, Photo Black (see Michael's article).
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Craig Murphy

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 03:38:46 PM »

Thanks.  Didn't notice the article.
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Schewe

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2007, 12:15:42 AM »

Quote
Am pretty sure that Exhibition Fiber contains OBAs, given that it's brighter and whiter than Harman Gloss (which does have OBAs).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep, it does...but that's not automatically a "bad thing". Even older silver gelatin papers were known to have whiteners in the paper to give the prints a brighter white. Whether they were using fluorescent whiteners, I don't know...

I also know that the EFP paper is PH neutral...but we'll need to wait for Wilhelm to do longevity testing for the paper/ink combinations, which could be a while since the paper hasn't officially started shipping. I'm also pretty sure that not unlike the Somerset for Epson variations both the paper base, thickness and coatings were Epson speced and that by agreement, none of the other Somerset papers could match the Epson specs exactly.

I've been testing the paper for months (well, since last May or so) and over that time, Epson went back to the makers several times with redesigned specs to mitigate several aspects of the manufacturing process and for optimal compatibility with K3 inks (both the current plus the newer vibrant magenta series). So far, this is the closest to the right or optimal combinations of paper feel, weight, thickness, surface reflectance and minimized gloss differential as I've seen.
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NikosR

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New Epson Exhibition paper vs.Harman FB gloss
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 12:28:23 AM »

DWDM. For a moment I thought I was browsing the wrong forum. We use Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing  equipment in my line of business to take advantage of the full bandwidth offered by fiber cabling  
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Nikos
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