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Author Topic: Phase One Upgrade Policy  (Read 11701 times)

stewarthemley

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Phase One Upgrade Policy
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2007, 09:58:01 am »

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I'm just plain amused and bemused why anyone would want any item which has design flaws, but you can fix it later in software. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So all other lenses have zero flaws? Try putting a lens through PT Lens, for example, and see what happens. I'm more amused that someone voicing an opinion so loudly in a pro MFDB forum doesn't seem to know that, or at least seems to ignore it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 10:02:01 am by stewarthemley »
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cerett

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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2007, 10:38:12 am »

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I use an independent London dealer and my P to P+ upgrade was progressed quickly and efficiently. We also have Calumet here in the UK, and I've never found them particularly appealing, their prices are good but not great and they seem to struggle with lots of unfriendly policies and restrictions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This may very well be a Calumet issue, although they say can't get any information as to delivery time. I bought the P45 from them because they offered a good deal and took some items in trade. I probably should have gone with someone who deals exclusively with professional photographers.
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jonstewart

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 10:40:57 am »

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So all other lenses have zero flaws? Try putting a lens through PT Lens, for example, and see what happens. I'm more amused that someone voicing an opinion so loudly in a pro MFDB forum doesn't seem to know that, or at least seems to ignore it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you misunderstand, and I never implied any lens was perfect. I assumed, that like me, anybody reading the posts would know that as fact. The issue I'm raising is why Hasselblad, as a lens and camera manufacturer, would settle with a deliberate compromise, which others have described as flaws, BECAUSE you can fix them in software. Look at it another way: Hasselblad have produced their first lens which REQUIRES THEIR software to get a satisfactory image. While I agree with Dustbak that using software is important in the quality of the final image, I look at this and still think that this isn't very much of an advance in lens design - IMO, seems they've given up on trying to improve the optic design and materials technology, thrown up their hands in resignation, and given the problem to the software engineers!

Hasselblad were always known for excellence in the quality of their equipment, and it seems to me that this may not true in the case of this lens.

I still suspect that this decision is based on marketing strategy rather than the economics of doing the extra R&D. Nobody has supplied any evidence that the lens is actually cheaper than it would have been otherwise.

Anyway, these are just my opinions: I don't think Hasselblad are any better or worse than any other of the manufacturers in the respects we have discussed, and perhaps next, Mamiya will come out with a cheaper 28 with software correction!
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josayeruk

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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 10:50:09 am »

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Hasselblad were always known for excellence in the quality of their equipment, and it seems to me that this may not true in the case of this lens.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you seen any examples of images taken with this lens?

If not, then perhaps you should reserve your judgement?

If the 'deliberate' compromise results in a lens that is smaller, lighter and cheaper then why complain???

Anyway, this is straying away from the OP original topic so I guess if some folk want to discus further they should start a new topic!

Jo S.x
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jonstewart

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 11:54:10 am »

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Have you seen any examples of images taken with this lens?

If not, then perhaps you should reserve your judgement?

If the 'deliberate' compromise results in a lens that is smaller, lighter and cheaper then why complain???

Anyway, this is straying away from the OP original topic so I guess if some folk want to discus further they should start a new topic!

Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144822\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The quality of the image that the lens is capable of is entirely irrelevant, it's the methods used to achieve this is what I have been expressing some concern about. I think you missed that point.

Your opinion is that the compromises don't matter, my opinion is that, that is a bit of a shift in Hassleblad philosophy that bothers me. Fine, we can agree to disagree.

Now, what about Phase Upgrade policy?

(Mind you, a well known international courier have just 'lost' a P45 being sent to me, so I'm not so much concerned with upgrading, as getting one in the first place!)
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pprdigital

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 02:31:20 pm »

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I still suspect that this decision is based on marketing strategy rather than the economics of doing the extra R&D. Nobody has supplied any evidence that the lens is actually cheaper than it would have been otherwise.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you compare Mamiya 645 lenses to Hasselblad H lenses, you'll see that the average Hasselblad HC lens is typically twice the price. In fact, as a system it's roughly twice the price.

The new Mamiya 28mm lens sells for $5,294 at B&H. The Hasselblad HCD 28mm sells for $3,875. This is backwards. Based on the cost precedence of the systems, one would expect the Hasselblad 28mm to be $7,000 - $9,000. Instead of costing twice the Mamiya, it costs 2/3. This points directly to the cost savings of the lens.

Reducing optics also saves size and weight. The HCD28mm actually is smaller than the HC35mm.

Bottom line - if the results are equal, and the lens costs significantly less, where is the rub? Other than you can only use it with H3D. That's a given - so if that's a show stopper, you don't have a choice anyway. That's a valid criticism, but other than that, I don't see any flaw in what they're doing. I know one thing - I've sold a whole lot more HCD28mm lenses at $3,875 than I would have if they were $7K - $9K.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.co/digital.php
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 02:42:37 pm »

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Had the thought occurred to you that this situation only exists because of 'some specific aberrations [that have] been incorporated into the design of the lens'?

To me this is the hardware equivalent of taking an OK photo on the basis that we can photoshop it into a great one!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think there is nothign wrong with a software approach to lens design

look at the nikkor 10.5 fisheye - well wide - very small -  super light - super cheap and specific defishing software is available

The 14mm corrected nikon is 3X the price (admittedly covering a larer image circle)

The design of that lens, the 10.5 just cuts out a whole war with phisics and replaces it with a simple digital/mathematical transform -  'remapping' the pixels

And yes IMO the map should be open source

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

jonstewart

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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 03:00:16 pm »

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If you compare Mamiya 645 lenses to Hasselblad H lenses, you'll see that the average Hasselblad HC lens is typically twice the price. In fact, as a system it's roughly twice the price.

The new Mamiya 28mm lens sells for $5,294 at B&H. The Hasselblad HCD 28mm sells for $3,875. This is backwards. Based on the cost precedence of the systems, one would expect the Hasselblad 28mm to be $7,000 - $9,000. Instead of costing twice the Mamiya, it costs 2/3. This points directly to the cost savings of the lens.

Reducing optics also saves size and weight. The HCD28mm actually is smaller than the HC35mm.

Bottom line - if the results are equal, and the lens costs significantly less, where is the rub? Other than you can only use it with H3D. That's a given - so if that's a show stopper, you don't have a choice anyway. That's a valid criticism, but other than that, I don't see any flaw in what they're doing. I know one thing - I've sold a whole lot more HCD28mm lenses at $3,875 than I would have if they were $7K - $9K.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.co/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



So, basically what your saying is that, even if it is for marketing reasons, there's no reason to be concerned if the final output quality is fine.

Fair enough. ...and thanks for those who engaged in helping me evaluate my opinion here... and sorry to have hijacked the thread!

(Anybody seen my missing P45?   )
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 03:02:24 pm by jonstewart »
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Jon Stewart
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josayeruk

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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2007, 03:15:10 pm »

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So, basically what your saying is that, even if it is for marketing reasons, there's no reason to be concerned if the final output quality is fine.

Fair enough. ...and thanks for those who engaged in helping me evaluate my opinion here... and sorry to have hijacked the thread!

(Anybody seen my missing P45?   )
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think Steve just said the opposite?  

He made a good case for the economics based on the past pricing of Hasselblad vs Mamiya.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2007, 03:18:36 pm »

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So, basically what your saying is that, even if it is for marketing reasons
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont see the lens 'flaws' as engineered IN for marketing reasons they just werent engeneered OUT for price/size reasons

The fact that the code is kept proprietry IS for marketing reasons

there would be a good market for 'chipped' lenses !



S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

jpjespersen

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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2007, 03:31:06 pm »

You guys need to start a new forum.  The recent posts have nothing to do with "Phase One Upgrade  Policy"
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jonstewart

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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 03:35:27 pm »

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I think Steve just said the opposite?   

He made a good case for the economics based on the past pricing of Hasselblad vs Mamiya.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Think you need to reread his post.

Based on precedence the Hassy 28 should be a lot dearer than the Mamiya... but it isn't. Speculatively for marketing reasons.. ie to actually sell them. It will be interesting to see if Hasselblad can reduce the price of their lenses across the range while maintaining quality.

I do believe good glass is expensive to R&D and make, but I think the backs should be a lot cheaper, and I guess they are getting there with that one.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 03:44:07 pm »

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You guys need to start a new forum.  The recent posts have nothing to do with "Phase One Upgrade  Policy"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Done
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK
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