Phase One Upgrade Policy

[cerett]

This is a copy of a thread posted by me on the Phase One web site. Is anyone else having a similar experience?

"I am now rapidly coming to the conclusion that Phase One gives top priority to the sale of P+ series backs to new owners and very low priority to current owners seeking to upgrade to the P+ series. After all, isn't it better to sell a new back for over 30k rather then make an exchange for 8k? This seems like the only plausible explanation for over a six month delay in receiving the upgrade I ordered through Calumet. I know Phase One is a small company with limited production, but give me a break! When a large camera store like Calumet cannot provide their customers with answers because they cannot get the answers themselves, something is very wrong."

"If Phase One is not going to honor their commitment to current owners in a reasonable and timely fashion, they should not make any commitment at all."

"It has been recently said that the current digital backs on the market are now so close in quality and performance, that a major factor to consider before purchasing is the reliability and integrity of the company. It is my sincere hope that Phase One keeps this in mind."

[jpjespersen]

This is a copy of a thread posted by me on the Phase One web site. Is anyone else having a similar experience?

"I am now rapidly coming to the conclusion that Phase One gives top priority to the sale of P+ series backs to new owners and very low priority to current owners seeking to upgrade to the P+ series. After all, isn't it better to sell a new back for over 30k rather then make an exchange for 8k? This seems like the only plausible explanation for over a six month delay in receiving the upgrade I ordered through Calumet. I know Phase One is a small company with limited production, but give me a break! When a large camera store like Calumet cannot provide their customers with answers because they cannot get the answers themselves, something is very wrong."

"If Phase One is not going to honor their commitment to current owners in a reasonable and timely fashion, they should not make any commitment at all."

"It has been recently said that the current digital backs on the market are now so close in quality and performance, that a major factor to consider before purchasing is the reliability and integrity of the company. It is my sincere hope that Phase One keeps this in mind."
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I would suggest going through a smaller dealer who has a more personal connection with phase one, they seem to get clearer answers and are able to give a more personal service.  I am not sure about this but it seems to be how it works.  My guess is Calumet has a huge amount of orders and upgrades waiting, and they are just not allocated that many backs from phase one.
When I decided to purchase my back, the first person I talked to was Phase One, and they suggested a dealer.
However i did purchase a p45+ brand new expecting to receive a p45 loaner, and I received p45+ straight off, with no wait.  My dealer was surprised and said he still had people waiting for their +backs

[mattlap2]

I would suggest going through a smaller dealer who has a more personal connection with phase one, they seem to get clearer answers and are able to give a more personal service.  I am not sure about this but it seems to be how it works.  My guess is Calumet has a huge amount of orders and upgrades waiting, and they are just not allocated that many backs from phase one.
When I decided to purchase my back, the first person I talked to was Phase One, and they suggested a dealer.
However i did purchase a p45+ brand new expecting to receive a p45 loaner, and I received p45+ straight off, with no wait.  My dealer was surprised and said he still had people waiting for their +backs
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not to mention that things sometimes fall thru the cracks at Calumet.   I would call your local Phase Rep and inquire about your upgrade and then continue to pressure Calumet.

[Silverthorne]

My story goes like this-

In April I contacted my small dealer to inquire about an update to the + series. He gave me the price, with no promise of delivery time. Hmm.

I call back in May, and he tells me there is still no promise of delivery time, and by the way, we no longer sell Phase units due to a minor dispute, we just service them and work closely with a dealer on the East Coast for sales. Here is the phone number to call for the East Coast dealer.

I call the East Coast dealer and leave a message. No return phone call. So, I buy a Hassy H3D.

Never been happier.

[Gary Ferguson]

I use an independent London dealer and my P to P+ upgrade was progressed quickly and efficiently. We also have Calumet here in the UK, and I've never found them particularly appealing, their prices are good but not great and they seem to struggle with lots of unfriendly policies and restrictions.

[Mark_Tucker]

When the Academy Awards for Interpersonal Communication are given out, Phase One will never be amongst the nominations. So just assume that. Avoid the corporation entirely, and use the energy to find a retail dealer.

My advice is to call Dave Gallagher, in Atlanta, at http://www.captureintegration.com, and press him for a straight answer. If he knows it, he will give it to you. I agree with another person here -- avoid the bigger box pushers, and find a smaller, more personal, dealer.

Capture Integration is not perfect, but they're about as good as they come. If you want Hasselblad or Leaf, then I advise dealing with Steve Hendrix in Atlanta, at PPR. He's a fine person too.

Trying to buy a MF back is about one notch above a Manhattan sidewalk shell game. Just know that going into it. Assume there will be surprises. Assume there will be delays. Assume that they'll tell you about half of what you need to know. Assume that the software will be quirky; even CaptureOne. Many times, it's not the dealer's fault either; they can get jerked around as much as the end consumer.

It has no bearing on the size of the check. Almost the inverse. Compared to buying a Canon, it's about the inverse. The more zeroes, the greater the hassle factor. Why it's that way, I will never understand. But if you lower your expectations going in, greater chance you won't be so disappointed. Great theory, huh?

[pss]

My story goes like this-

In April I contacted my small dealer to inquire about an update to the + series. He gave me the price, with no promise of delivery time. Hmm.

I call back in May, and he tells me there is still no promise of delivery time, and by the way, we no longer sell Phase units due to a minor dispute, we just service them and work closely with a dealer on the East Coast for sales. Here is the phone number to call for the East Coast dealer.

I call the East Coast dealer and leave a message. No return phone call. So, I buy a Hassy H3D.

Never been happier.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

customer service is as important to me as to everybody else...but i would never let it be my first and only purchasing desicion....not sure where you are, but you should not have any problems getting a phase back (even if it "only the p loaner" within a day..anywhere in the US....

buying a DMF back has been likened to buying a car, but i would never just get the one that's available.....because it's there....glad you are happy with you purchase...

[Silverthorne]

You are right, it should not be the only factor but let's say that is the straw that broke the camels back. When I'm attempting to spend $15 to $20K, I would expect some sort of action. Any action would suffice. It was more than just one unanswered phone call. It is perfectly acceptable to have no return call for a week. It is perfectly acceptable to wait for a period of time for a product, but no prediction whatsoever for a delivery date? No returned calls from a dealer? Ever? No answered emails? Coupled with all other quirks and nuances of my transactions with them, that was it.

Thanks, I love my new camera.

[jpjespersen]

My Experience.
I contacted a Phase Rep when deciding to purchase a camera.  He called me the next day and suggested a dealer in my region.  I called this guy and got straight through to him.  We talked for a couple of days and then I decided to make a purchase.  He told me I would receive a loaner within a week or two and gave me the date of early Nov. to receive my plus back.  Within 2 weeks I received my plus back instead of a loaner and was very happy.  My dealer expedited the shipping as well so I could get a job shot on time.
I have no problems with Phase One.  And It is compatible to many systems and lenses unlike the H3D.

[godtfred]

And It is compatible to many systems and lenses unlike the H3D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144478\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The H3D is also compatible with many systems and lenses afaik:

H3-body
Most modern LF cameras with flash sync and adapter for H-back
Fuji GX680 (kapturegroup adapter)
Mamiya RZ (using flash sync and adapter.)
Alpa
Cambo
Silvestri
etc.

Its not as smooth an integration as a number of other backs, but still a possibility.

On some cameras you have to remove the security latch on top of the H3D back, a dealer can do this for free or a couple of $$$... I have only used it on my Linhof, but still, the adapters are available...

-axel

[jpjespersen]

Oh yeah, Sorry.  I was thinking of the fact that the new Hasselblad Lenses only work with H3D because of ways they process information.

[TechTalk]

Oh yeah, Sorry.  I was thinking of the fact that the new mamiya Lenses only work with H3D because of ways they process information.
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I think you meant to say one new Hasselblad lens works only with the H3D. The 28mm HCD.

The first time in the history of camera lens optical design that the ability to use automatic digital correction of some specific aberrations has been incorporated into the design of a lens. The concept opens up some interesting possibilities in future lens designs.

[jpjespersen]

Yes, Sorry again, Edited.

I think you meant to say one new Hasselblad lens works only with the H3D. The 28mm HCD.

The first time in the history of camera lens optical design that the ability to use automatic digital correction of some specific aberrations has been incorporated into the design of a lens. The concept opens up some interesting possibilities in future lens designs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[cerett]

I guess it is my turn now. The first time I directly complained to Phase One about the delay I got an email from a guy named Robert McCarthy, "Inside Sales." He said he would look into the matter. That was three months ago. I complained again in August and he assured me my upgrade would ship in September.

The response from Phase One to my post on their own forum is 0. So much for custumer satisfaction.  

Quite honestly, if someone would offer me a decent price for my P45/H2, I would sell both and go with the Hasselblad integrated system. Besides, I'm starting to believe that the future of MFDB's may lie with them.

With regards to Calumet, I tend to agree. But they sure walk the walk and talk the talk when it came to selling me the back.

[jonstewart]

I think you meant to say one new Hasselblad lens works only with the H3D. The 28mm HCD.

The first time in the history of camera lens optical design that the ability to use automatic digital correction of some specific aberrations has been incorporated into the design of a lens. The concept opens up some interesting possibilities in future lens designs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

...and is a frighteningly closed system.

Had the thought occurred to you that this situation only exists because of 'some specific aberrations [that have] been incorporated into the design of the lens'?

To me this is the hardware equivalent of taking an OK photo on the basis that we can photoshop it into a great one! Would it not be better to spend a little more on R&D and get the lens right per se. Fuji have plenty of money don't they?

[josayeruk]

...and is a frighteningly closed system.

Had the thought occurred to you that this situation only exists because of 'some specific aberrations [that have] been incorporated into the design of the lens'?

To me this is the hardware equivalent of taking an OK photo on the basis that we can photoshop it into a great one! Would it not be better to spend a little more on R&D and get the lens right per se. Fuji have plenty of money don't they?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you actually seen it working?

Fuji might have plenty of money but that doesn't mean the users have to spend €20,000 on the 'perfect' lens.

There is also nothing frightening about it being closed.  It has made a better camera.

Jo S.x

[Dustbak]

...and is a frighteningly closed system.

Had the thought occurred to you that this situation only exists because of 'some specific aberrations [that have] been incorporated into the design of the lens'?

To me this is the hardware equivalent of taking an OK photo on the basis that we can photoshop it into a great one! Would it not be better to spend a little more on R&D and get the lens right per se. Fuji have plenty of money don't they?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I find the concept of leaving known errors in the lens and correcting them in software a really great idea. It makes for much better and cheaper lenses.

Now, indeed, how many would be whining when the 'perfect' 28 would cost you 20K USD (or Euros) ??

What in my personal opinion is a bad decision is to keep the corrections algorithm secret instead of providing third parties with the correction details. That way parties like Adobe, Iridient would be able to develop for the 28 as well. Stuff like that as well as DAC should be integrated in a developers package so that we as users have more options in software choice.

This would also mean the 28 could be used with H2 and H1 if the correction takes place later in the RAW development stage.

The fact that the 28 needs software correction is no reason perse to keep the system closed.

[jonstewart]

I find the concept of leaving known errors in the lens and correcting them in software a really great idea. It makes for much better and cheaper lenses.

Now, indeed, how many would be whining when the 'perfect' 28 would cost you 20K USD (or Euros) ??

What in my personal opinion is a bad decision is to keep the corrections algorithm secret instead of providing third parties with the correction details. That way parties like Adobe, Iridient would be able to develop for the 28 as well. Stuff like that as well as DAC should be integrated in a developers package so that we as users have more options in software choice.

This would also mean the 28 could be used with H2 and H1 if the correction takes place later in the RAW development stage.

The fact that the 28 needs software correction is no reason perse to keep the system closed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why would a well developed lens cost $20K...that's nonsense. Mamiya can get pretty close for what, $6K?

I agree completely with reservations about the secrecy surrounding the correction algorithm. This is why the closed system is frightening. If you want to use my lens, then you've got to buy my camera, and use my software. I much prefer a more open competitive approach.

I'm just plain amused and bemused why anyone would want any item which has design flaws, but you can fix it later in software. It's like buying a tripod which comes with the legs bent...but, oh, you're also supplied with a hammer to fix it!

Lastly, making a better camera and 'closing up' your system are completely unrelated. I personally think that deliberately introducing incompatibility is just a matter of keeping margins up, both in the short and long term. Users have a much bigger decision to make if they want to change anything in their system.

I want to see the price of MFDB's drop, not go up!

[Dustbak]

I think you are over-simplifying here just as I am exaggerating about the 20K. Software has become a vital part of the whole process of generating an image nowadays.

Fact is; by transferring part of the system towards another place (software), which is already necessary and used, you create advantages. The lens can be lighter and cheaper in production thus costs less while retaining a high level of quality. I believe it is very clever, making use of all possible and available means.

Let me turn that around. Not using computer power to draw more quality out of a system would be a serious design flaw nowadays.

The comparison with the tripod and the hammer is IMO in that case not correct.

I totally agree that closing a system doesn't have to do anything with quality. It is like Microsoft vs the Open Source Community. I see the same kind of arguments being used.

[jonstewart]

Yes, Dustbak, I was going to mention Microsoft.

There's a fine line to be drawn in the compromise between the quality of the hardware, and whether it can be improved in software. The example we're using here isn't unique, but I believe it is the most extreme example I have yet seen.

I think that what really concerns me is the combination of deliberate and known compromise in quality, and the effect of closing down the system by not releasing information to the wider community.

If Hasselblad were to release the pertinent information, then I, for one, would not be tarring them with the brush I have.

I agree with you about using software to the greatest extent possible... we've always done that, with profiling etc, but to do it to make up for a deliberate flaw in the lens design takes me in a direction which makes me feel rather uncomfortable!