Rolleiflex Hy6

[samuel_js]

The first P21 I got was faulty. It had a problem with the card reader. I called my dealer, dealer gave me direct contact with PhaseOne, phaseone called me the same day and my new P21 arrived three days later (weekend included). I live 200 km from Stockholm and PO is located in Denmark. It's the company that makes this happen. I understand Mark saying he doubt Sinar/Leaf/ being capable of same support. Actually, PhaseOne was the same effective company when I had my 6Mp Lightphase. PhaseOne's good support is nothing new...

Absolutely - I dont really trust any one to do what they say

But I can get a new nikon pretty easy

And of course you can get four for the price of a DB

S
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[rainer_v]

i really dont know if there exist a wrong or right.... but i know that i have got excellent service from sinar german as well from sinar swiss and asia for exchanging backs,adapters and lending me things as the sinar m or the multishot back when i thought i needed it.

what would you have done with your **.***$ shot, which mark is alltimes referring to, if the exchange - back came three short days later?

[samuel_js]

Rainer, I don't mean sinar or leaf has bad reputation regarding support. But someone thinking about the Rollei Hy6? Information? Backs? Suport? Dealers?  Actualy I was considering the Hy6 when I switched to digital.  I had been working with a 503CW and H1 and a Rollei,  and the Hy6 seemed to be the natural step for me. I wrote my thoughts in this thread. They (swedish dealer) could never explain clear what the options were. I had a Contax system that I loved except the autofocus, a Mamiya AFDII without DB because it never arrived...
At the end, all this confusion made me go other ways. I ended up with H2/P21. The combo Hasselblad/Phase simply works in every way. Now, the Hy6 project are late for me anyway, and the camera isn't out yet...
 It has been a lot of this discussion here for about 5 - 6 months ago and now, it seems that we are at the same point. People wonder same things, the marketing works the same way....

i really dont know if there exist a wrong or right.... but i know that i have got excellent service from sinar german as well from sinar swiss and asia for exchanging backs,adapters and lending me things as the sinar m or the multishot back when i thought i needed it.

what would you have done with your **.***$ shot, which mark is alltimes referring to, if the exchange - back came three short days later?
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[nik]

Whatever Mark's creative fee for the day is, double it! LOL!

I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
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[heinrichvoelkel]

It is amazing. Everybody is bitching about the camera, the manufactures, .... and so on. Mamiya announced the ZD back in 2004 or was it 1989 or even before the steam engine was invented and the back made it to market just this year. And still good product for most who use it at Iso 100.

Stop whining...

I did hold a Sinar HY6 in my hands. The shutter worked, the mirror went up and the image on the screen was there. No scientific tests, sure, but the shutter sound was standable, the mirror slap was far less than on a H1 ( totaly unscientific conclusion). The handgrip was fine. The control layout is idiot proof ( and even photographers will understand it). Hell of a camera. Finally you can compose a picture by looking down on a screen worth the hassle with digital medium format.

And with the next generation of 48 by 48 sensors, you will be lightyears ahead of your competitors. As most campaigns, at least in my case, are asking for DIN A2 horizontal and vertical from the same shot in 300 dots per inch.

And now I have to sell my hasselblad gear...

[Geoffrey]

So here we are a year later:more rumors, some cameras, and the difficult US market. We have some proud European companies involved here, who make great products, but don't quite get the US market....

And now, add the internet: where corporate decisions or differences spread like wildfire. For example, Leica one posted a firmware correction with a small error, and within 24 hours, everyone had it, and was griping. There is no longer any room for error. So too, the possibilities of information leaks are ever more present.

One more ingredient: imagine that a company develops its product for another company, allows yet another company to put their name on it too (Leaf), and then says they'll sell it under their own, original name (Rollei) as well.... and by the way, can one more company join the party (Phase)? Wow.  

This level of corporate nimbleness is unheard of in this industry. Its almost like Kodak making camera, along with film that only they can process (Kodachrome), paper, ingredients, etc., but in reverse: Rollei (F&H) will make a product and it will be available any way you want to see it. As a Rollei, Sinar, or Leaf camera. Maybe its just a home for a back.

It's all great fun (to me). However this unfolds, at the end of the day we're getting a new Rollei, sized like a 500 Hassy, updated for digital backs, that takes my old (wonderful) Rollei lenses, and fixes a number of flaws in the 6008 series.  Do I care whose name is on the front? Nope. Do I want a good product? You bet.

Yes, service in the US is a problem - just as it has been for these companies, and probably always will be. They just don't get what we need. But the product is just that - a fine one, and one I'm waiting for. Yes, its a bit of a circus, but then again, I never was too fond of corporate managment - and its kind of fun to see the curtain drop a bit, and peak into the backstage.

If the product is there, and is a good one, then nothing else will matter. If not, well, then the second guessing can continue on for a long time. My bet is on the former, but we'll have to see.

Geoff G.

[DavidP]

I heard yesterday, from a rep, that there would be an announcement at Photo Expo next week about Phase mount backs for Rollei Hy6, Don't know, but I guess we will find out soon.

[samuel_js]

- the Rolleiflex branded Hy6 version will be available late November (hopefully just in time for the dentist's Christmas wish list);

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You forgot to say, "unless you're an american or european dentist".

[BJNY]

- the 45° prism finder is on schedule and will be available somewhere in the first quarter 2008.
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I did not know a 45° prism finder was planned.
Will both the 45° and 90° prism finders rotate like the SLX/6000-series versions?
Thank you, EPd.
Billy

[jpjespersen]

- the Rolleiflex branded Hy6 version will be available late November (hopefully just in time for the dentist's Christmas wish list);

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This may be true, but I would bet it will be hard to get one for a few months after the release date.  Also about Phase compatibility the the Rollei,  I was hinted by my dealer that the plates won't be available until possible mid next year when the release the full new version of C1

[pss]

mark: of course the 24h replacement is not a perfect solution...but better then having no warranty/replacement like canon....if your canon/nikon fails be prepared to wait weeks...of course having 2 is the best solution....another is buying local and having a dealer who will have some kind of replacement in your hands within 2 hours...NY and LA this is possible, of course you are always somehow screwed on location...rain? snow? who pays for that?
funny you mention those bike locks: a couple of years ago they had to go back on thier warranty because someone found out that they could be picked with any ball point pen...they did NOT pay for the bikes as they promised they would...bike messengers in NY went ballistic....somehow they found a legal loophole to escape....they did exchange the locks....

thierry: you mention earlier that you can only speak for yourself: i think that is the problem.....we know that only a handfull companies make bare DVD drives and LCD screens and everybody re-badges them into 1000s of different products...with different firmwares, etc...
this field is so specialized and so small, there were so many announcement by jenoptic and F&H and sinar and leaf....and nobody can speak for the other....hasselblad has their lenses made by fuji but nobody comes here and asks whether they have to send their lenses to fuji or to hasselblad...no confusion, good marketing....

anyway the camera will be amazing and once it is actually in the store anyone can ask the question at the counter..where do i send it if it fails? who is responsible...all these questions will be answered.....

of course the leaf camera won't be handled by sinar and the other way around...if they end up on the same desk (in repair)...who cares?

also: i am so sick and tired of hearing promises about C1v4...it will have lens correction built in, it will provide support for the Hy6, it will cure cancer......it 's a joke..the software is in beta and it took one year to build in highlight/shadow recovery sliders....yes, in the last remaining months they will re-invent the wheel.....i am still positive that phase backs will be on the hy6 (who know what badge it will carry) at one point...but i am almost hoping that phase won't be involved in this.....

[RicAgu]

Meaning as a distributor in the US like MAC and SinarBron.  I am not delusional.

All those companies have shit representation in the US and have so for years.  Briese has been around since the early 90's and flurishing in Germany.  Rollei lost its footing years ago and has always had horrible representation in the US.  Arca, I won't even go there and Alpa is all too new and also have shit representation in the US.

Nothing is difficult, you just need the money to set it up and the passionate people to work it.  There are enough retireing or retired photographers that are tired of the rat race and love selling gear and geeking out and selling to people.  The problem is, all those brands are too high end to make a company, especially in today's market succesful unless you cater to the rental market and production houses.  But SinarBron did it, so am I am sure BARA, RABA or for the Republican buyers ARAB could work as well.  And please don't start with some racists crap.  I am not meaning in that way.

I do hope you guys do well and look forward to seeing a working product with a cost effective back up body available.

Rick,

Please take this with the complete humor that it is meant.    Saying Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alba getting together would be great is kind of like a photographic manufacturer fantasy pool, or arguing whether Superman or Batman would win in a fight.    You have to remember that they are all individual companies and on some levels compete for the same market elsewhere.

DSM is owned by Tosh Komamura, who also owns Horseman.   Which is why DSM is the mechanism to distribute horseman and and try and move more Rollei in the US.    I am sure DSM's efforts also have a bit more urgency in trying to go toe to toe with Sinar, because of their long standing competition in the view camera market.

All 4 of those companies have suffered from weak distribution in the US.   Many reasons including marketing, quality control problems, and just plain not understanding the US market.   It is much harder than you expect to create a distributor that does it "RIGHT".   If it was there would be a few hundred more brands in the US than there currently are.    Many quality products have come and gone just because the importer could not get it together.

F&H did put out a press release last year that Sinar would be the worldwide distributor of all Rollei products with the exception of the UK and Japan due to previous distribution agreements.   Obviously that has been muddled now and I am pretty certain there is more legal wrangling going on behind the scenes than we know.   I don't think you can expect Sinar Bron to become the warranty center and repair center for all Hy6 variants.   They are just an importer of goods into this country.   They are owned by 3 individual manufacturers (Broncolor, Sinar and Foba) but are independent as a business entity.   They have to buy parts and eat the cost of service just like any other importer.
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[mattlap2]

Meaning as a distributor in the US like MAC and SinarBron.  I am not delusional.

All those companies have shit representation in the US and have so for years.  Briese has been around since the early 90's and flurishing in Germany.  Rollei lost its footing years ago and has always had horrible representation in the US.  Arca, I won't even go there and Alpa is all too new and also have shit representation in the US.

Nothing is difficult, you just need the money to set it up and the passionate people to work it.  There are enough retireing or retired photographers that are tired of the rat race and love selling gear and geeking out and selling to people.  The problem is, all those brands are too high end to make a company, especially in today's market succesful unless you cater to the rental market and production houses.  But SinarBron did it, so am I am sure BARA, RABA or for the Republican buyers ARAB could work as well.  And please don't start with some racists crap.  I am not meaning in that way.

I do hope you guys do well and look forward to seeing a working product with a cost effective back up body available.
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Rick,

I don't think it is possible to establish a network like Sinar Bron or MAC group in todays market with companies that aren't very well established here.    Too often many factories treat their dealers like bad customers, rather than partners.   In addition some of them are companies so small that they cannot provide the financial support to establish a good system here.

SBI and Mamiya America have both been around for 20 years (SinarBron is coming up on 30) when the market was a very different place.    Both have shrunk personnel because market conditions but are able to provide quality customer service.   It's not often, but I have also seen both fail from time to time.    

I have been on this side of the business for more than 20 years and have seen many quality products come and go for different reasons.   Ultimately they did not have the resources to build a bulkhead here in the US, and many continued to thrive in their parts of the world for years.  (Some still do ...).

Matt

[Morgan_Moore]

Reference Phase.

Surely the best and most likeley option for them is to sit on the fence for a while see how the product matures and is taken up by the market and then decide

This is still a system that gives few apparent advantages and many apparent disadvantags for capturing with a 645 chip

it is of course chicken and egg because a phase option would help market take up

S

[thsinar]

Dear Paul,

Everybody should understand this, that I can only speak in the name of the company I represent and sign for here. However, I have put things clearly enough, or so I thought, that everybody can understand the relationships and the place of each actor: this has not changed since day one of my given information:

- Jenoptik is the project owner and financing company of the Hy6 camera system: the rights of this camera belong entirely to Jenoptik AG Germany.

- Sinar AG Switzerland is a 100% Jenoptik Cie, integrated in their Digital Imaging center.

- Sinar will sell the Hy6, its lenses and accessories, as well as provide support and service/back-up worldwide and through its existing network of distributors.

- Leaf has got the rights to sell this camera as well, under the name Leaf AFi. I suppose that Leaf will provide the servicing and support through its own distributors, which seems logical.

- F&H is the manufacturer of this camera (and accessories) and has the rights to sell it as well under the brand Rolleiflex Hy6.

Now, my information in January of this year was that this was meant in Japan, China and Russia, only. It happens now that this seems to have changed. But personnaly I simply do not care about it, since it concerns F&H. And my opinion is that it should be them announcing this.

So please tell me where I have been wrong, what other information has been given by Jenoptik or where did Jenoptik say something different? Leaf, so far I could read from Yair here on the forum, did not say much differently, if I remember it right. F&H? Sorry, they don't have any official member here (or?) and I am certainly not speaking for them.

This just to put things straight.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

thierry: you mention earlier that you can only speak for yourself: i think that is the problem....., there were so many announcement by jenoptic and F&H and sinar and leaf....and nobody can speak for the other....hasselblad has their lenses made by fuji but nobody comes here and asks whether they have to send their lenses to fuji or to hasselblad...no confusion, good marketing....

anyway the camera will be amazing and once it is actually in the store anyone can ask the question at the counter..where do i send it if it fails? who is responsible...all these questions will be answered.....

of course the leaf camera won't be handled by sinar and the other way around...if they end up on the same desk (in repair)...who cares?

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[thsinar]

This is one way to put things: it suggests that it is Phase One deciding to join or not. They are not part of the project, have not financed it by any means and it was always said that there will be no adapter manufactured for PO backs. I wish to remind that the Hy6 project belongs to Jenoptik, thus the capability to give the rights (or not).

Phase doing an OEM back for Rollei is another story (with their P20, if I am right), and has nothing to do with the topic here.

Best regards,
Thierry

PhaseOne is not and will not be a party in the Hy6 project, as things look now. Not with Jenoptik and not with F&H. If they want to be on the Hy6 they will have to make an adapter themselves, as has been said here numerous times before. I don't know how Phase sees its future and how they wish to serve their clients. I wish they would take part, but it seems they do not share that wish. The one time they were prepared in the past to make a digital back for a Rolleiflex 6008AF camera, it was a Rollei branded back that was bought by Rollei. On their website there was no mention of the existence of that back at all. One would almost think that Phase is not interested in the Rolleiflex platform.

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[Graham Mitchell]

Thierry, that is clear, just as it was clear months ago. You have the patience of a saint to answer the same questions over and over and over again!

[thsinar]

Not true: Sinar starts to deliver their first 9 units to their distributors this week.

Best regards,
Thierry

Anyway, for those who like solid information on the Hy6 developments I have some updates:

- the first Hy6 line production cameras will be supplied to Sinar and Leaf at the end of this month...

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[Mark_Tucker]

What I don't understand is that some people complain about getting informed, although be it in bits and pieces. Do they want to be kept in the dark? And then, one day suddenly there is a new system that they never expected to see.

The Hy6/Afi was presented at last year's Photokina as a prototype. So it was clear that nobody could buy it yet, but it gave a taste of what would be an investment option in the near future. What is long about looking ahead one year when it comes to big investments?
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Of course, you want to be kept in the dark. You want to be kept in the dark with any new product, especially a whole new camera system, until it's shipping in quantity, and until someone else (with their fifty grand) does the initial beta testing on it.

If I learned anything with the H1 Hassie, you don't want to buy version 1.0 of anything that's that expensive. So of what use is it to me, for The Three-Headed Monster to announce something, when it's on the drawing board? And then, too, risk the entire world seeing their dirty laundry being aired, and they bite each other's head off until the camera actually hits the street?

Personally, I'll seriously look at this camera when there's a 6x6 chip out, and not until real photographers have been using it for at least a year or so, and the bugs are flushed out, and someone else risks their fifty grand. Would I love a 6x6 chip? Of course. Am I willing to (again) switch systems, only to find some glaring new fault in the new system? Absolutely not.

So you guys forge ahead. Keep snapping off to those MTF Charts. Be first in line. Get out your checkbooks. And then, make sure and report back. Go ahead -- the water's fine. Trust me.

[Craig Lamson]

Of course, you want to be kept in the dark. You want to be kept in the dark with any new product, especially a whole new camera system, until it's shipping in quantity, and until someone else (with their fifty grand) does the initial beta testing on it.

If I learned anything with the H1 Hassie, you don't want to buy version 1.0 of anything that's that expensive. So of what use is it to me, for The Three-Headed Monster to announce something, when it's on the drawing board? And then, too, risk the entire world seeing their dirty laundry being aired, and they bite each other's head off until the camera actually hits the street?

Personally, I'll seriously look at this camera when there's a 6x6 chip out, and not until real photographers have been using it for at least a year or so, and the bugs are flushed out, and someone else risks their fifty grand. Would I love a 6x6 chip? Of course. Am I willing to (again) switch systems, only to find some glaring new fault in the new system? Absolutely not.

So you guys forge ahead. Keep snapping off to those MTF Charts. Be first in line. Get out your checkbooks. And then, make sure and report back. Go ahead -- the water's fine. Trust me.
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You crack me up Mark...nice homepage in your profile! LOL!