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TechTalk

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« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2007, 07:28:57 am »

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consumers want all in one packages with "mega focus" and "worlds first and best" labels.....which is why dentists these days have H3Ds....
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Actually, many thoughtful professionals have made well reasoned and considered decisions to purchase the H3D. Some see value and advantage in the technologies that Hasselblad has developed and in the integrated system approach. Hasselblad seems to be proud of their products, but I've never seen them show any sign of dismissive contempt for other products.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2007, 08:40:37 am »

Mark, your anti-Hy6 attacks are factually incorrect and bordering on libelous. Be careful.

You have already been corrected regarding your parts dealer story. Besides, the time taken for an out-of-stock part to come in is moot when you get a loaner unit.

Sinar's 5yr/24hour offer sounds very interesting to any working professional.

Btw, I bought a car in Germany once, and it was all done on the spot.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2007, 09:18:40 am »

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Mark, your anti-Hy6 attacks are factually incorrect and bordering on libelous. Be careful.

You have already been corrected regarding your parts dealer story. Besides, the time taken for an out-of-stock part to come in is moot when you get a loaner unit.

Sinar's 5yr/24hour offer sounds very interesting to any working professional.

Btw, I bought a car in Germany once, and it was all done on the spot.
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You got to laugh at/with Mark - see the humor

my next door neighbor has a D200  and there will be three at any wedding and one for sale every airport in the world

That is better than any service backup agreement IF you shoot D200 and yours pops theres always one you can borrow

IMO sinar is not adressing becoming a thinking dentists camera, just a bit cooler than a regular dentist (who has the H3d)

It is critical for dentists to use the kit - means turnover - stock - rental - S/H - price pressue - market - and funding for future developments

Some one mentioned sinar having been the top guys in viewcams for 50 years - where is the top guy in typewriters now - what does heritage mean

The most critiacal thing is sinar need to get into the rental network

Who can affrod two and who can afford 24 hours of downtime in the middle of a shoot?

SMM
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RicAgu

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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2007, 09:56:10 am »

The story about the running out of her garage is for Arca Swiss.  

Take it from someone who owns an Arca Monolith and will most likely not buy another Arca product again.

Precision does a great job at repair, but if Bob doesn't have the part, it takes for ever.  It took two to three months to get a repair done this past spring.  For a part that could have fit in a padded fedex envelope and shipped over.  But they had to wait for a shipment to come over.

On the Rollei front.  The 6008 was my first complete pro system with two bodies and six lenses in the early and mid 90's.  Back then there was a small repair shop in Jersey that did all the repair and getting any kind of accs or part was a pain to say the least.  Rollei always produced the most amazing catalogs and well made products.  Battery technology was not all that great when the 6008 came out and this is why I left Rollei back then.  You had to use those damn rechargeables and they lasted between 100 and 300 shots depending on the battery and there was no consistency.

I think the concern for most of the people here are the Phase users that may want to use the Rollei.  For the Leaf and Sinar user they are covered and both companies will offer a solid support.  SinarBron in the US has always been there for parts and service.  

The main problem is Rollei and what they will do to support the Rollei branded version of the Hy6.  I hope that Rollei will sell a raw stripped down body as a back up.  From the looks of the Rolei it will be the perfect camera for me.  A cross between the RZ and the H1/2.  With the ability to use the older Rollei Schneider lenses and then get a X-Act.  It is a great all around camera.

With all the confusion on the Rollei brand with this new DSM company it will be tough.  I though i had read somewhere that SinarBron would be the exclusive distributer for Rollei products in the US.  If they decide not to promote the Rollei Hy6 to push their own agenda of the Sinar Hy6, then they are shooting themselves in the foot.  If Sinarbron takes the helm to offer service, parts and support for the Hy6 all around then we have a winner.  If not then the Sinar customer will be covered.  MAC Group does a stellar job at service and support for their products.

If Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alpa got together and started a US distributor we would be set.  With the kind of Service ans support that SinarBron and Mac Group provide.
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mattlap2

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« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2007, 10:16:50 am »

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The story about the running out of her garage is for Arca Swiss. 

Take it from someone who owns an Arca Monolith and will most likely not buy another Arca product again.

Precision does a great job at repair, but if Bob doesn't have the part, it takes for ever.  It took two to three months to get a repair done this past spring.  For a part that could have fit in a padded fedex envelope and shipped over.  But they had to wait for a shipment to come over.

On the Rollei front.  The 6008 was my first complete pro system with two bodies and six lenses in the early and mid 90's.  Back then there was a small repair shop in Jersey that did all the repair and getting any kind of accs or part was a pain to say the least.  Rollei always produced the most amazing catalogs and well made products.  Battery technology was not all that great when the 6008 came out and this is why I left Rollei back then.  You had to use those damn rechargeables and they lasted between 100 and 300 shots depending on the battery and there was no consistency.

I think the concern for most of the people here are the Phase users that may want to use the Rollei.  For the Leaf and Sinar user they are covered and both companies will offer a solid support.  SinarBron in the US has always been there for parts and service. 

The main problem is Rollei and what they will do to support the Rollei branded version of the Hy6.  I hope that Rollei will sell a raw stripped down body as a back up.  From the looks of the Rolei it will be the perfect camera for me.  A cross between the RZ and the H1/2.  With the ability to use the older Rollei Schneider lenses and then get a X-Act.  It is a great all around camera.

With all the confusion on the Rollei brand with this new DSM company it will be tough.  I though i had read somewhere that SinarBron would be the exclusive distributer for Rollei products in the US.  If they decide not to promote the Rollei Hy6 to push their own agenda of the Sinar Hy6, then they are shooting themselves in the foot.  If Sinarbron takes the helm to offer service, parts and support for the Hy6 all around then we have a winner.  If not then the Sinar customer will be covered.  MAC Group does a stellar job at service and support for their products.

If Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alpa got together and started a US distributor we would be set.  With the kind of Service ans support that SinarBron and Mac Group provide.
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Rick,

Please take this with the complete humor that it is meant.    Saying Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alba getting together would be great is kind of like a photographic manufacturer fantasy pool, or arguing whether Superman or Batman would win in a fight.    You have to remember that they are all individual companies and on some levels compete for the same market elsewhere.

DSM is owned by Tosh Komamura, who also owns Horseman.   Which is why DSM is the mechanism to distribute horseman and and try and move more Rollei in the US.    I am sure DSM's efforts also have a bit more urgency in trying to go toe to toe with Sinar, because of their long standing competition in the view camera market.

All 4 of those companies have suffered from weak distribution in the US.   Many reasons including marketing, quality control problems, and just plain not understanding the US market.   It is much harder than you expect to create a distributor that does it "RIGHT".   If it was there would be a few hundred more brands in the US than there currently are.    Many quality products have come and gone just because the importer could not get it together.

F&H did put out a press release last year that Sinar would be the worldwide distributor of all Rollei products with the exception of the UK and Japan due to previous distribution agreements.   Obviously that has been muddled now and I am pretty certain there is more legal wrangling going on behind the scenes than we know.   I don't think you can expect Sinar Bron to become the warranty center and repair center for all Hy6 variants.   They are just an importer of goods into this country.   They are owned by 3 individual manufacturers (Broncolor, Sinar and Foba) but are independent as a business entity.   They have to buy parts and eat the cost of service just like any other importer.
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2007, 10:41:17 am »

For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture, so I can know whether to completely write them off or not. My initial gut feeling is not good at all.

From afar, when I read about the three companies who are cutting up the Hype6 pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.

As a guy who's had a MF camera go down on him, in the middle of an advertising job, Fear is my middle name sometimes, with these cameras and backs. It's not a happy thing to admit, but when there's money on the table, and your neck is on the line, you need something you can count on. I keep two bodies and two Phase backs, and multiple lenses in my kit at all times. The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot? Do I eat the expenses for that Day One? No, I pull out my second body/back, and keep working.

The "24 hour loaner" is fine for the Dentist, because his goes down on a Saturday morning, and tomorrow's sunrise also calls for sunshine, so he's fine with the 24 hour loaner.

Many people have made good points in this thread. You think I'm being alarmist/libelous? Read the other comments. I stand by every word, (except the Arca craziness).

Read this: NO ONE WANTS CONFUSION. This Hype6 came out of the gate way too early, hoping that everyone would keep their money in their pockets. Now, they are paying the price. Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?

When there's a fifty to sixty thousand dollar investment to make, and your reputation's on the line, Confusion should not be the Appetizer. That's all I'm saying. Not when there's a 1ds3 right around the corner, and Hasselblad is kicking ass. These are very expensive, competitive times, and no one  wants to write a check for the wrong system. (Trust me, I've done it). It's way too much trouble, and way too expensive, to switch, later on, especially at the price of the Rollei lenses alone.

That's all I'm saying. Don't blame the messenger.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 10:54:14 am by Mark_Tucker »
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thsinar

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« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2007, 11:04:28 am »

Dear Mark,

I do not want to argue with you. I'm just thinking that it is too difficult a job. But I am very much asking myself what kind of experience make you say all this about Sinar and the Hy6. We are going our way, we don't need to be the second or the third head on a 2-feeted giant. We have our own legs for this. I personnaly wish and am convinced of the success of this camera, and not only as a "dentist" one.

Now it all depends what is meant with "success", and you seem to link it exclusively with its success in the US. May I simply remind that the US is one market from many others, and not necessarily smaller ones. This does by no means suggest that the US are not important for us, but simply that there is another part of the world existing and as well important.

As for the US market, we (understand Sinar) will give it the necessary attention and support the product like we have always done it and which has made our reputation as a leading and trustful company.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture, so I can know whether to completely write them off or not. My initial gut feeling is not good at all.

From afar, when I read about all these companies who are cutting up the pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.

As a guy who's had a MF camera go down on him, in the middle of an advertising job, Fear is my middle name sometimes, with these cameras and backs. It's not a happy thing to admit, but when there's money on the table, and your neck is on the line, you need something you can count on. I keep two bodies and two Phase backs, and multiple lenses in my kit at all times. The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot? Do I eat the expenses for that Day One? No, I pull out my second body/back, and keep working.

The "24 hour loaner" is fine for the Dentist, because his goes down on a Saturday morning, and tomorrow's sunrise also calls for sunshine, so he's fine with the 24 hour loaner.

Many people have made good points in this thread. You think I'm being alarmist/libelous? Read the other comments. I stand by every word, (except the Arca craziness).

Read this: NO ONE WANTS CONFUSION. This Hype6 came out of the gate way too early, hoping that everyone would keep their money in their pockets. Now, they are paying the price. Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?

When there's a fifty to sixty thousand dollar investment to make, and your reputation's on the line, Confusion should not be the Appetizer. That's all I'm saying. Not when there's a 1ds3 right around the corner, and Hasselblad is kicking ass. These are very expensive, competitive times, and no one  wants to write a check for the wrong system. It's way too much trouble, and way too expensive, to switch, later on, especially at the price of the Rollei lenses alone.

That's all I'm saying. Don't blame the messenger.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2007, 11:08:23 am »

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You got to laugh at/with Mark - see the humor

There are newcomers reading this forum every day, and they could read Mark's post and believe every word and repeat it elsewhere. That's how rumours start.

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That is better than any service backup agreement IF you shoot D200 and yours pops theres always one you can borrow

But if a D200 were a good enough substitute then we'd all be using it in the first place. Besides, we could all finish a shoot with a D200, regardless of which camera broke down. This isn't a selling point for any particular camera.

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It is critical for dentists to use the kit - means turnover - stock - rental - S/H - price pressue - market - and funding for future developments

True.

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The most critiacal thing is sinar need to get into the rental network

In the US, perhaps. All the Euro photographers I know own their own kit. This may explain why some German companies underestimate the significance of the US rental market.

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Who can affrod two and who can afford 24 hours of downtime in the middle of a shoot?

Who can afford not to have two?? If you happen to shoot in a studio all the time, only during business hours and there is a rental shop nearby, then great. But for any of us shooting in remote locations, or in the middle of the night, this doesn't help. You need a backup. I am so far from any medium format outlets that I had to double up not only on camera bodies but lenses as well. I am the only MFDB shooter in Estonia.
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2007, 11:10:00 am »

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Now it all depends what is meant with "success", and you seem to link it exclusively with its success in the US. May I simply remind that the US is one market from many others, and not necessarily smaller ones. This does by no means suggest that the US are not important for us, but simply that there is another part of the world existing and as well important.
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I wish you the best of luck in your venture.
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thsinar

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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2007, 11:20:19 am »

Thanks Mark!

We certainly need it, since by definition a venture is risky. However, it is not an ad-venture and we are not running heads down into this.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I wish you the best of luck in your venture.
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« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2007, 11:29:13 am »

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For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture

...by making an allegation which applied to another company not inolved in this project (Arca Swiss)?

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The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot?

My understanding of the 24 hour warranty is that you will receive your loaner within 24 hours, and for as long as it takes until your own unit is repaired. What could be better than this, apart from owning 2 camera bodies yourself? This applies across all brands so why raise it as a criticism of the Hy6 project?

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Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?

There are persistent rumours about Canon gear too. Heard the one about Canon getting into medium format? They were going to show a 22MP body last year and pulled out. What was that all about? What about the Phase/Mamiya partnership? What happened there? Deafening silence. Could Hasselblad have been any more confusing with its "full frame" marketing, and the H3D/28mm fiasco? All companies have been known to change direction or have published incorrect information at some point.

What really doesn't make sense about your arguments is that you are blaming three independent companies for not making a united statement. Why should they!! Sinar dealers will sell and service the Sinar Hy6. You can read about the camera on their website, and order one through their dealer network. What more do you want?
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2007, 11:41:31 am »

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My understanding of the 24 hour warranty is that you will receive your loaner within 24 hours, and for as long as it takes until your own unit is repaired. What could be better than this, apart from owning 2 camera bodies yourself? This applies across all brands so why raise it as a criticism of the Hy6 project?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would suggest to any and all of these companies to drop the 24 hour loaner program, and to begin a program similar to what those APS/UPS/SurgeProtector companies do, or even the Kryptonite bicycle lock company does:

"We feel so strongly about the performance and reliability of our products that, If our camera or back ceases to function properly during one of your jobs, we'll write you a check for the full amount of all your Cancellation Fees and other Related Costs (including, your Creative Fee for that day)."

I wonder how many of these companies will step up to the plate and offer that? They need to feel the real ramifications of a back/body going down at 9am of a full day's long shoot.

Oh, the deafening silence.

[a href=\"http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx]http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx[/url]

https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp
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thsinar

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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2007, 11:51:55 am »

... and what about the lab processing your tranies in C41, or vice-versa? Or the courier loosing the films on its way to the lab (happened to me)? Or a helicopter shooting worth Euro 5'000.- ++ and the films got scratched (happened to me as well)? My creative fee was worth nothing, but may be I didn't scream loud enough.

Thierry

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"We feel so strongly about the performance and reliability of our products that, If our camera or back ceases to function properly during one of your jobs, we'll write you a check for the full amount of all your Cancellation Fees and other Related Costs (including, your Creative Fee for that day)."

Oh, the deafening silence.

http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx

https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp
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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2007, 12:10:23 pm »

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But if a D200 were a good enough substitute then we'd all be using it in the first place. Besides, we could all finish a shoot with a D200, regardless of which camera broke down. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The point I am making is that ALL MFDB have a pretty poor dealer network compared to Nikon or Canon

but in the UK I am happy I could get a Phase (a phase will cover my 54LV) or an H1 very quick buy or rent or borrow

In london there is much AFD2 and H1 rental and many dealers have used  in stock

Most photographers know a local photogrpaher with similar kit who can help dig them out of the Sh*t within the hour

All this breeds confidence in a system - the HY6 need a reasonalbe market penetration to gain that confidence IMO

I should order a plate for my ProTL - that would give me backup

S
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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2007, 12:19:36 pm »

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The point I am making is that ALL MFDB have a pretty poor dealer network compared to Nikon or Canon

When I was Sweden and had just bought a new Canon body which was out of calibration, I took it to the nearest canon service centre and it took eight weeks! Disaster. Size is no substitute for quality.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2007, 12:25:57 pm »

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When I was Sweden and had just bought a new Canon body which was out of calibration, I took it to the nearest canon service centre and it took eight weeks! Disaster. Size is no substitute for quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely - I dont really trust any one to do what they say

But I can get a new nikon pretty easy

And of course you can get four for the price of a DB

S
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thsinar

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« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2007, 12:33:05 pm »

Revolving adapters are in production.

Thierry

Quote
Hello,

last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.

What a hell of a camera.

The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter side, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.

And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...

Regards
Heinrich
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« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2007, 01:38:35 pm »

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From afar, when I read about the three companies who are cutting up the Hype6 pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
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lol  
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« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2007, 01:54:23 pm »

i suppose it has to be more than boring to be here as rep. from a company, answering again and again since 9 months more or less exactly the same questions about a not released product,- and i cannot see that thierry has made such an unclear job here. at least i know in the meantime more about the HY& than about any other mf camera,- maybe except about my contax.
congratulations thierry. i think i would not be able to do this and to stay polite .....


mark, i for myself still do not understand the essence of your post against the hy/afi/rollei or the three companies. what you tell? i dont see the points.

24 hours loaner and 5 years is bad thing and just for dentists? because your back/body can break at 4 a.m.?  yes it can do so,- and thats surely bad luck. buy two if it makes you feel saver- although: sad but true- two backs/bodies can break down also. not very likely, but also its not very likely that one back/body will break down exactly in a moment that you will not find any other solution than to cancel your shoot. of course it can happen as everything can happen. so what? what you will do if your TWO backs/bodys will break down during a **.***$ job? ( model costs and helicopters and agency  costs included ? ) . no idea?  me i have one:  .... buy three.
i sometimes have two backs with me and sometimes i have not ( but than a 5d).
never i died from fear if going out with one and never i ruined one of my jobs, although having passed several breakdowns during my career, but mostly with mechanical things- unfortunately i still have just one shift camera with me, this still is by far my biggest risc but i take it brave.  earlier or later this will ruin me..........  
anyway what about the film days? in a church-shooting job my 4x5" technikardan felt to the floor and was totaly out of every adjustment after. did i had two 4x5" cameras with me? and two 72xl? ( which broke also ). no.  i never owned two 4x5" cameras,- it was enough weight to carry around one setup. ( even i dont rememeber how the story went on but not very dramatic ).
so full of fear? what will you do if you get a a really bad stomach. or you break yourself a leg? or if you loose 1 EYE? OR 2 ? how you will take a flight ? ? i hope in a seperate machine as your assistant that he can finish the job if somthing bad will happen or vice-versa, each with one of the backs/bodies/lenses/laptops/cables/chargers.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 02:03:39 pm by rainer_v »
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josayeruk

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Rolleiflex Hy6
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2007, 02:15:15 pm »

Quote
Apologies,  I didn't really express myself very well.

What I meant to say was F&H are in the position of being an OEM manufacturer for Leaf and Sinar.

Therefore I think the situation would be clearer if they remained autonomous.

Deciding to try and sell themsleves in a large market like the US then puts them in competition with their partnered companies of Leaf and Sinar.

F&H have more to play with on profit margains so will they then be putting pressure on Leaf and Sinar to cut their prices to unfair levels?

That's what I meant to say.  Not saying I am correct at all - I just think it might be a interesting discussion.

Jo S.x
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Not sure if I am allowed to reply to myself...  

My point above was put more eloquently in the 'Three heads analogy' by Mark T.

Seems that F&H are not necessarily working in the best interest of Leaf and Sinar, thats all.

They should either stay in the background as an OEM company or simply have launched the Hy6 as a camera platform under the Rollei name and licensed it to who ever wanted to pay up.

Just my 2 pence worth!

Jo S.x
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