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Author Topic: what happens after photography?  (Read 19414 times)

ronno

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what happens after photography?
« on: October 01, 2007, 05:40:45 pm »

So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50...  :-(
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 05:44:04 pm by ronno »
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Gary Ferguson

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2007, 06:40:04 pm »

I completed a degree in photography nearly thirty years ago, but decided I wasn't ever likely to break through the competition, so did other things with my working life. However, I've always kept in touch with my fellow students. On balance they present a sobering picture of the professional photographer's life.

Most occupied the middle or lower rungs of the profession, from wedding photography to selling or management in photo retailers. The wedding photographers have become pretty jaded after three decades at the job. They make a living, but they all recognise that competition means they can never raise their fees too much above the market rate. And photographic retailing has had a torrid time since the advent of the internet.

A few had an early rush of fame and fortune, but that often faded away when the art directors that essentially brokered their rise moved on themselves to other things.

The last thirty years has seen the demise of staff or in-house photographers, so sadly most of the ones who were in stable employment have been made redundant on at least two or three occasions. The library/stock income that kept many afloat has steadily dwindled as fees declined and their library portfolios became outdated.

One guy had a very successful business as a food photographer, with a well located specialist studio. I thought he was the best placed to maintain momentum over the long haul. But about eight years ago, after more than twenty years of sustained results, his turnover spiralled down to almost nothing in a frighteningly brief period. He feels he kept his work fresh and contemporary, but that he had built his business on a small group of clients, and they were either promoted beyond the level where they were actively commisioning photographic work, or they just moved on to other industries.

I'm about to retire from my non-photographic career, and over the last couple of years I've been building up an architectural photography practise. Personally I feel that the business skills I've acquired outside photography have made the process, if not easy, then at least steady and profitable.  I remember the carnage from the 1989-95 property crash here in the UK, and with strong signals that another's on the way I'm certainly not counting my chickens, especially as most of my clients are property developers or manufacturers of building materials.

But I'm convinced that as long as you keep working at developing your customer base the photographic future needn't be as bleak as many of my contemporaries have found it.

I guess photography is simply a particularly dynamic business, and the moment you stop reinventing yourself, taking risks, and nurturing the future commercial prospects of your business; then it doesn't take long to get overtaken by the next generation.
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pixjohn

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2007, 06:47:53 pm »

Save, Invest and Save more $$$.  If I new the future back then,  I would have continued with my plans to attend law school. I am lucky I have made a good living so far, but have no clue what the future holds. To many new photographers have been  entering the business with cut throat rates. Photographers made more money 20 years ago then today.

Quote
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50...  :-(
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 06:59:42 pm by pixjohn »
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EricWHiss

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2007, 11:40:13 pm »

Pop! Pop!   I hear the sounds of lots of bubbles bursting!  Maybe all the young punks reading this forum will go away and find a job in graphic design or web monkey instead. ;_)

Ron,
You know what the funny thing is I hear the same from my friends that are in Engineering here in Silicon Valley.  They say they are done at 40 - all washed up. No one wants them and only wants to hire the young guys right out of school.     I also hear from my other friends that have kids, they are done.  Who is going to hire a guy that has to leave at 5 to pick up their kids from school?  

But all these guys still have jobs, and houses right now anyhow.   I wouldn't worry about it.  As long as you say you are still learning I think everything is okay.  That's whats gets you - when you think you know everything.

Eric

ps.  if you rent a studio, think about buying - at least in the end you can rent it, sell it, or live in it instead of tossing money away.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 11:44:45 pm by EricWHiss »
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Kagetsu

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2007, 11:58:49 pm »

Photography seems to be a hot thing right now. I'm still quite young, but I have to be realistic. There's nothing I'd like more then to produce photography for a living, and there are people out there who obviously do it quite successfully. Realistically, my 'skill' level may be resonable, but commercial, it's un-viable for me to enter full on into the market. It's a side thing for me. Maybe one day, but not likely. It'll always be my hobby, with anything else coming in... I'll be happy if it ends up paying for itself and a few holidays (for photography of course).

I've yet to meet any of the really successful... Actually, that's not true, I've met two who do landscapes... But they both work incredibly hard... Which I would also like, but I can't see either of them going until they die (in a commercial sense)... Actually, one is dead (Jarver). Anyway, they were successful, but by no means would I say they're successful in the way of general business would be considered. They probably bring in at the end of the day an average income, and live an average life outside their photography.

There's actually a good magazine article on the demise of the professional photographer in an Australian Magazine I'm reading at the moment. I'll photograph the pages (don't have a scanner at home) and try and post them in a few hours.

In relation to the 'getting' to that age sort of time, I guess it's how well you've planned prior to getting there. Some people do it well, some don't. It's really no different to many other industries with similar trends.

I like to think of it as a trying time for photographers now. The shiners will carry on, and the ones who can't break away from the riff-raff will be dragged back down. It's not a bad thing. With any luck more interesting and unusual stuff will come from it.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 12:01:36 am by Kagetsu »
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AndreNapier

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 12:39:14 am »

At 20 you can be a soldier
At 30 sergant
at 40 captain
at 50 major
at 60 general

Nobody needs 60+ soldiers, everyone respect the general. If you do not have the makings of general maybe you should not consider millitary as a life carrier

andre.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 03:01:18 am »

I have been in more than one career by now at only 38. Currently I live from photography. Indeed hard work but when you manage to keep your costs low it can be done.

I have done everything by just doing it without thinking too long about the consequences or what can go wrong. If I would have, I would never have done many of the things I have done sofar.

Sure you need to think a bit about what will come in the future but IMO not too hard. Who knows what will happen tomorrow? You live today.

I have enough skills to pick almost any career that I like but outside events can always render a skill useless or unwanted. You never know. The only thing I do is live now, keep on discovering and learning things. I try to steer my life into a certain direction but if I need to reroute due to circumstances beyond my power, no problem.

There is more in this world than New York and maybe you will make it as an 'old photographer'
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 03:02:25 am by Dustbak »
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mahleu

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 03:58:29 am »

just out of curiousity, am I the youngest person on here? (22)
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Dustbak

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 04:18:21 am »

You should be in NY
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godtfred

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 04:24:48 am »

Quote
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50...  :-(
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lots and lots of babies, cats and weddings out there, it ain't pretty, but you'll pull through      
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sbernthal

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2007, 07:18:32 am »

It is not only New York high fashion or weddings and cats.
There's plenty of stuff in the middle.

I am almost 40 and now make a living as a commercial photographer - no weddings!
I find it easy to manage in photography at an advanced age, as long as you keep an open mind and don't have to be the "flavor of the day" shooting the "it" model for vogue, or the prestige magazine of your location.

There's plenty of commercial photographic work in any western industrialized city - be it food, product, jewelry, architecture, portraits, or even basic fashion.
Here in Israel the top photographers make about $1500 a day.
I make half that on a very good day.
I guess the numbers are at least triple that in New York.

My point is that your rates will drop, but if you are flexible and open minded to what the market wants, and what you can and are willing to do, then you can still make a living at this even after 40.

The big thing is how to get new clients, but this is information that obviously nobody will share willingly.
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Dustbak

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2007, 07:57:01 am »

Sure, I am willing to share how I get my clients. I call, mail, email, fax, beg, visit and entertain potential clients  Only very rarely they will come to me by themselves. I also have to admit that I pick clients that I would like to have most and go after them. Sort of the 100 clients I want most list.

You have to push yourself over the feeling of shyness of approaching people to ask them whether you can work for them. This should not be too hard for a photographer. The older I get the easier this is for me I have found out. Very little will make me feel ashamed so I have no objections doing stuff I would not have dreamed of doing when I was in my early 20's.

IMO, this skill is the least developed with many photographers. Many think they just have to make a few beautiful images and the clients will come in herds. Keep on dreaming, at least I have never been that fortunate

I even have to push my regular clients to bring their stuff every 6 months.

Indeed there is a never-ending need of images in all sorts of industries for all sort of companies or even individuals.

Another thing I have to mention. I do not work full time! I take care of my 2 kids and work. This means my earnings are lower than if I would work fulltime so I had to drop costs to be able to survive and I work on odd hours. I work lots of weekends and nights which is great because it allows me to spend time with my kids, moderate a photography forum and post on this one as well  

There are periods of time that I make double shifts and periods that are very quiet.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 08:36:45 am by Dustbak »
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TorbenEskerod

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2007, 08:46:59 am »

xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 06:53:51 am by TorbenEskerod »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2007, 08:56:31 am »

You are a lucky man Torben  

My experience is that we live in a world where most people have forgotten about you when you are around the corner. Which means you have to go after it yourself to succeed.

Sure. I have clients that do come back by themselves with lots of work. There is also a large number that needs a little bit of help in that area. On another level, I have been able to get more work from existing clients by being proactively involved with them.

What do you mean you are in a better position if the client calls you instead of the other way around? Even if you do the aqcuisition yourself you can always refuse an assignment. It can be too badly paid, not in your expertise or for whatever reason. This way it doesn't necessarily mean you are in a better position when the clients call you, IMO naturally. They just called you nothing more nothing less.

The work needs to fulfill the clients needs, period. Lets not go there and lets assume the ability to deliver professional results.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:07:20 am by Dustbak »
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TorbenEskerod

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2007, 09:21:41 am »

xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 06:54:05 am by TorbenEskerod »
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thsinar

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2007, 09:32:38 am »

I fully agree with this: to give the client this little unexpected, unwaited and "different" is the best way to get it coming back. Not trying to get the job just done and deliver what was asked but a little bit more which makes him wanting it. That's exactly the point for many who are very successful. And of course, luck is not involved here, but hours and hours of hard work, experiencing and sometimes even loosing time and money.

Thierry

Quote
I always try to give my clients something extra, something they don’t expect, and something they did not even think off, something I want the client to have.
I don’t think luck has anything to do with it - just the work - it is as simple as that.
Torben
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Dustbak

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2007, 09:42:45 am »

Quote
I always try to give my clients something extra, something they don’t expect, and something they did not even think off, something I want the client to have.


I don’t think luck has anything to do with it - just the work - it is as simple as that.
Torben
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I feel like you either don't understand what I write or are misinterpreting what I am saying.

I wrote with the meaning; given the fact that you deliver what the client wants. Whether that is more than the client wants or  exactly what they want as long as they are completely satisfied and coming back for more. Now having that out of the way, what do you do or can you do to get more clients, beyond sitting back and waiting. Not saying that one thing is better than another, they are all just options.

I mean you are a lucky man for what you claim to be able to do. Sure hard work is a big part of it but without luck nobody fares well. You can also read lucky in the form of being happy, fortunate, etc.. It has nothing to do with the way you got there. It also a form of telling someone that you are happy for them as well.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:54:01 am by Dustbak »
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sbernthal

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2007, 09:54:35 am »

I do only passive marketing: I expose myself to possible clients and wait for them to call me.
Others come by reference.
This is of course expensive and inefficient.

There is no doubt that the photographer that has the nerve to go to the client and push him for work, will get much more business.

However, unfortunately, many photographers are too "sensitive" to do it, as I'm sorry to admit I am.
But I would not call it an ideology - it is a shortcoming of the photographer that can't do it, and nothing to brag about.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:59:49 am by sbernthal »
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ronno

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what happens after photography?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2007, 08:20:21 pm »

Quote
I get my clients this way - they contact me. I never call potential clients unless they call me first. I do no self-promotion, I have no website, I am not listed in the phonebook. I think I am in a much better situation when the client calls me than the opposite way around.


Ronno, I value an old Vanity Fair issue where working photographers past 80 was featured (Avedon, Penn, Newton, Parks, etc.). This is where I want to be, making good work when I am 80+

I always believe in the work - not the self-promotion part.

Torben
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey Torben, I am curious about this. Maybe you'd be willing to show us some of your work, or reveal your location/market, or both!

Also, I agree that for Vanity Fair to give these guys a salute is great. I think they are (were...) all super photographers and deserve the recognition. Which issue was it?

p.s. is this you?
[a href=\"http://www.yossimilo.com/artists/torb_eske/?show=0&img_num=0#title]http://www.yossimilo.com/artists/torb_eske...img_num=0#title[/url]
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-typ...0Eskerod&page=1


Best,
-ron
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 08:26:44 pm by ronno »
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Silverthorne

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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2007, 08:45:09 pm »

I never made real money is this business until clients saw my gray hair. At age 48, I can honestly say that I make a good living in photography. Hopefully the trend will continue as I go through my fifties and finally set up an art shop for selling my landscapes and framing photos with the help of some young person with tons of energy. Stock photography with respectable prices, would suit me fine, but it's the respectable price part that I am not convinced will work.

Architectual photography has been the most consistant of all my experiments. That's what it has been for 2o years and will most likely be for another 12 years of so. Re-inventing yourself is a yearly event; whether it be your style, your business model, or your equipment. When work does get slow, I ask myself "what am I doing wrong"? It is as if, you need to look until you find something wrong with your program. Usually it's the marketing. Sometimes it's the work.

That's my guess.
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