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Author Topic: Dan Margulis Sharpening Action  (Read 145081 times)

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2007, 10:31:47 am »

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Hey, I'm pretty good at hand waving...move along, there's nothing of interest to you here.

:::waving hand in front of the stormtrooper's face:::
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OK, Schewe,

I can forgive your hand waving as long as you keep on backing up your assertions (and riding that kick-ass bike.)  
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sniper

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #101 on: October 04, 2007, 11:57:52 am »

Thanks DD.  Wayne
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Peter Stacey

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« Reply #102 on: October 04, 2007, 03:00:15 pm »

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Peter,

This is excellent, and very much looking forward to your findings. If you would like to have a copy of the spreadsheet where I charted all the possible combinations of PK Sharpener (for Capture and Output Sharpening) please send me a private email through this website. It all allows one to define and calculate the size of a sample set for testing.

While the most obvious tests of interest to you would be comparisons with your own sharpening approach (I too would be interested in seeing it), it would also be of considerable interest if you were able to include comparisons with PK Sharpener. If you do not own a licensse to it yet, you can download it on trial and give it a whirl with this testing.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

Having just arrived home after travelling, I'll follow up with a pm.

Regards,

Peter
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digitaldog

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2007, 01:59:56 pm »

Dan's back and has posted a very long and somewhat cryptic post to his list on his sharpening techniques. I'm simply going to reply to a few points, mostly in light of the modifications of the action made by Iliah. I'm unsure now if I should follow his modifications or use the original instructions posted by Dan based on what he's written.

Dan's latest post concerning the modifications of his instructions:

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Dan:
Iliah's Action, I note, also includes Blend If sliders to restrict the sharpening in the lightest and darkest areas of the image. There's certainly no law against doing that if it makes the image look better, but I question whether they're really necessary. Because the mask is based on inverted luminosity, sharpening of the lightest areas is already seriously restricted. As for the darkest areas, sometimes they can be sharpened effectively but sometimes we encounter excessive noise. If that's the case, applying a U-shaped curve to the layer mask is likely at least as effective as Blend If.

I agree with Iliah's modifications and not what Dan is saying above based on tests done. The modifications make Dan's initial settings less ugly and destructive to the image but it still stinks. But according to Dan, do whatever it takes to make the image look better. So, the methodology is still non existent, move the controls and order anyway that makes the image 'look good'. This is indeed nothing short of useless.

Lastly, Dan says this about the technique, a total cop out on his part about the effectiveness of what he's doing. It appears again, he's made up a technique to garner attention but without doing any of the hard work of testing it, that's up to you to do.

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Dan:
As I indicated, it's speculative at this point--I'm pretty sure that the *concept* is correct but the execution that I suggested can probably be improved upon. Because testing it fully would take a great deal of time, and because the improvements would be visible but not spectacular, I don't foresee being able to take this much further myself, so I threw it out to the group for consideration

He's pretty sure the concept is correct. Great. Onto more wasted paper and ink. Not for this dog

Seems pretty clear to me from what he's saying, and I suggested this way back, its too much work for him to validate this technique. Your mileage may vary. You should tweak and or all steps to make it work better for you.

I'm sure Bruce is looking down on this sharpening attempt with a smile and a wink.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2007, 08:49:51 pm »

I have a new algorithm that I think can possibly improve even on Dan's latest, if possible. Here is the outline:

1.   Load image into Photoshop (or your favorite image editor).
2.   Optionally invoke your preferred plugin for whatever you want to achieve.
3.   Move the appropriate sliders until the very best result is obtained.
4.   Save your work.

I leave it to my groupies, er, ah, students to verify the superiority of this procedure.    
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digitaldog

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #105 on: October 07, 2007, 09:14:26 pm »

Quote
I have a new algorithm that I think can possibly improve even on Dan's latest, if possible. Here is the outline:

1.   Load image into Photoshop (or your favorite image editor).
2.   Optionally invoke your preferred plugin for whatever you want to achieve.
3.   Move the appropriate sliders until the very best result is obtained.
4.   Save your work.


Genius, sheer genius!
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2007, 11:22:14 pm »

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Genius, sheer genius!
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Thank you, Andrew. Would you like to be a priest in my new religion?  
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DaFu

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2007, 12:25:02 am »

Good heavens! Have you all gone mad? SIX pages of endless exegesis!

I think I saw something about 16-bit transmogrification of the highlights.

I'm finding Smart Sharpen to be rather smart though sometimes a blanket USM (I'm faintly aware it does transmute the undertinges of the 17% highlights in some way) seems to make the viewers happy.

Oh well, have fun. (Hats-off to EricM.)

Dave
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2007, 01:41:02 am »

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Because the mask is based on inverted luminosity, sharpening of the lightest areas is already seriously restricted. As for the darkest areas, sometimes they can be sharpened effectively but sometimes we encounter excessive noise. If that's the case, applying a U-shaped curve to the layer mask is likely at least as effective as Blend If.

Great, Dan has rediscovered the benefits of midtone masking, so that highlights AND shadows are not oversharpened. His next epiphany no doubt will be that converting to LAB and applying a bell (or inverted U-shaped) curve to the L channel works much better than converting to CMYK and screwing around with the K channel...perhaps something like this...

http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_20/essay.html

Note the date at the bottom of the link.

The new (as of 2005 or so) link for my sharpening action set is:
http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph...ningActions.htm

And if anyone cares, I'd be happy to post a detailed theory of operation of the action, how it works, why it works, and how to use it for best results.
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laughfta

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2007, 08:52:18 am »

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And if anyone cares, I'd be happy to post a detailed theory of operation of the action, how it works, why it works, and how to use it for best results.


Sounds as if you've done a lot more work on this idea than Dan has--I would be really interested in the details. Is this a process you use on most images, then? (or was that just in 2003?)
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Mark D Segal

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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2007, 09:10:44 am »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke,Oct 8 2007, 12:41 AM
[


And if anyone cares, I'd be happy to post a detailed theory of operation of the action, how it works, why it works, and how to use it for best results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144534\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

I care. Looking forward to reading it.

Mark
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 09:11:03 am by MarkDS »
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Dan Margulis Sharpening Action
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2007, 09:46:58 am »

Jonathan, I assume the answer is "YES", but just to seek confirmation: Will your actions work on CS3? Have you compared your actions with the PK Sharpener Pro actions, and if so any observations?

Mark
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2007, 10:11:47 am »

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Sounds as if you've done a lot more work on this idea than Dan has--I would be really interested in the details. Is this a process you use on most images, then? (or was that just in 2003?)

I use it (in concert with Focus Magic) on all of my images.

The basic concept is straightforward. The image is converted to 16-bit, then to LAB. The L channel is duplicated as a mask, and a bell curve is run on the mask channel so that the shadows and highlights are not sharpened, but the midtones are. The action is paused at this point so that if you want to manually tweak the mask (For example, if you want to prevent the sky or a person's face from being sharpened, you can airbrush that part of the mask to black and it will not be touched). Then the mask channel is loaded as a selection, and successive rounds of USM are done on the L channel with progressively smaller radius and higher amount values. After that, the mask is deleted, the selection is removed, and the Shadow/Highlight tool is run on the L channel to bring out detail in the shadows and highlights that may have been de-emphasized by the previous rounds of masked USM. Then the image is converted back to RGB.

The theory of operation has some similarities and differences compared to PK Sharpener. Like PK, it focuses on the midtones, but unlike PK, it doesn't really separate between capture, creative and output sharpening. If you think of an image in audio terms, one could equate the subwoofer volume level with what is commonly called "local contrast enhancement" (usually USM radius 100 or larger), fine pixel-level sharpness (USM radius 1 or less) as your high treble adjustment, and intermediate radius settings as frequency bands falling in between the extremes. When sharpening, one needs to appropriately adjust the image throughout the range of frequencies, in the same way that adjusting only the low bass or high treble on a stereo equalizer is not usually going to result in very good sound. IMO, this is a major flaw in most sharpening schemes; they only adjust either the "high treble" (USM radius 1 or less) or "low bass" (USM radius 50 or greater), and usually ignore the "mid-range" of radius values.

PK sharpener takes a 3-pass "equalization" approach comparable to having an equalizer in your CD player (capture sharpening), a second in your amplifier (creative sharpening), and a third in your speakers (output sharpening). There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach; having the equivalent of "EQ presets" for various input and output devices has a lot of merit, especially when making multiple versions of an image file for different output devices. But while certainly useful in many situations, "EQing" your image in 3 passes isn't strictly necessary. If you're not constantly changing your CD player and speakers, a single equalizer in the path between player and speakers is sufficient to correctly adjust the levels of the various frequency ranges to result in a properly-balanced output from the speaker.

That's more or less what my action is doing, functioning as a "single EQ" to properly balance the various spatial frequency ranges in an image in one step. When running the action, each round of USM is comparable to adjusting one frequency slider on a graphic equalizer, starting with low bass and working up to the highest treble range. It's not necessarily as fancy as PK sharpener, or always as convenient to use, but can deliver comparable results when used properly. The most important thing to remember is that since there are several rounds of sharpening, it's OK (and in fact necessary) to save something for the next round(s) of sharpening to do. Adjust the Amount slider until you start seeing haloing or pushing the boundaries of good taste, and then back it off some. As the action runs, you should see the image detail and micro-contrast gradually increase with each round of sharpening until you have the final finished product. If you're sharpening for print, you'll need to know how "crunchy" to make the image look on-screen (this will vary depending on printer and paper type, and is where PK Sharpener can save you some time).

In my workflow, I use Focus Magic for capture sharpening, as it uses a deconvolution "unblurring" algorithm that that does a much better job of undoing the effects of the anti-aliasing filter than simple USM or similar sharpening methods. I usually use Radius 2, 25-50%, followed by Radius 1, 25-50%, exact settings depending on which lens I'm using and aperture and such. Then I run my action to do creative and output sharpening combined.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 10:45:00 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2007, 10:26:39 am »

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Jonathan, I assume the answer is "YES", but just to seek confirmation: Will your actions work on CS3? Have you compared your actions with the PK Sharpener Pro actions, and if so any observations?

Due to time and budget constraints, I'm still running CS2 right now, but AFAIK it should run just fine on CS3. I haven't done a 100% scientific head-to-head comparison between my sharpening workflow and PK Sharpener but looking at images sharpened with PK vs my workflow, I haven't seen enough difference to make me want to buy PK. I'm kind of a cheap bastard, and I'd already refined my workflow and action before PK came out.

Since I'm familiar with my workflow, and have already learned how to make it do what I need, I didn't make the switch. But that doesn't mean I think PK Sharpener is bad or conceptually flawed or anything. I just don't think that in my case that it would buy me enough improvement in the final image going out the door to justify the cost. But for someone who doesn't want to go through the learning curve I did, PK Sharpener would probably be easier to get up and running with than my action.

In any event, you're free to download my action and try it for yourself and draw your own conclusions as to its usefulness and theoretical soundness, and compare it to whatever other sharpening methods you like.
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laughfta

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« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2007, 10:58:15 am »

This thread has brought an amazing amount of information, and this post is a great contribution. I will be trying your action out, Jonathan, and looking at Focus Magic, and of course PK Sharpener. I will probably settle on something fairly automated for convenience, but learning what's behind the curtain has always been important to me.  This is why all this peripheral dialog directed at Dan has been so frustrating to me --merely making fun of a technique or a man is not instructive. This post is the flip side of all that --instructive and insightful. Thanks.
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Peter Stacey

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« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2007, 11:42:49 am »

If you don't mind Jonathan, I might also take a look at your action and compare the results to my own workflow.

I started comparing the method in the opening of this thread today against PKS and also my own approach, but I might run your method against the images I have completed so far, just as an academic exercise to compare against my own workflow.

The use of the lightness channel in Lab was something I looked at briefly some time ago, but didn't find it as useful to my overall workflow and other approaches. However, I was looking at something fairly basic, so I might take another look and see what the method is doing and why.

Regards,

Peter
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 12:02:49 pm by Peter Stacey »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2007, 12:02:10 pm »

Quote
Due to time and budget constraints, I'm still running CS2 right now, but AFAIK it should run just fine on CS3. I haven't done a 100% scientific head-to-head comparison between my sharpening workflow and PK Sharpener but looking at images sharpened with PK vs my workflow, I haven't seen enough difference to make me want to buy PK. I'm kind of a cheap bastard, and I'd already refined my workflow and action before PK came out.

Since I'm familiar with my workflow, and have already learned how to make it do what I need, I didn't make the switch. But that doesn't mean I think PK Sharpener is bad or conceptually flawed or anything. I just don't think that in my case that it would buy me enough improvement in the final image going out the door to justify the cost. But for someone who doesn't want to go through the learning curve I did, PK Sharpener would probably be easier to get up and running with than my action.

In any event, you're free to download my action and try it for yourself and draw your own conclusions as to its usefulness and theoretical soundness, and compare it to whatever other sharpening methods you like.
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Jonathan - thanks - that's actually a very useful appreciation of the circumstances for favouring one or the other. It sounds to me from what you are saying that it's probably largely a matter of convenience and prior usage which to select, as over a range of images either would do well. In my case, because I've been using PKS since it hit the market and it works very well for me, I can forsee staying with it; but I'm always on the look-out for promising alternative techniques so I may well try yours too. One concerning factor, however, is the use of Focus Magic combined with your actions. I've tried Focus Magic and whereas I can see it being highly effective for forensic and medical purposes, for fine art photography I find it somewhat harsh. Perhaps your action deals with that effect, or you have a way of using it in the first place that keeps it tame enough to prevent the images from looking "sharpened" if you know what I mean. I know that Ctein also recommends this software quite highly and he is a noted fine-art printer.
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Schewe

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« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2007, 12:25:57 pm »

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In any event, you're free to download my action and try it for yourself and draw your own conclusions as to its usefulness and theoretical soundness, and compare it to whatever other sharpening methods you like.
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Interesting (FAR more interesting than Dan's BTW)...

Several comments; while converting to Lab for certain advantages derived from mask creation and isolation of luminance data, I would never want my original to go into Lab then back to RGB...I would prefer to spawn off a dupe image, do the work and bring it back into the original as a layer for blending in luminance...and in fact, the one aspect of your action that troubles me is the lack of adjustable layer results...trying to determine in/out based on looking at a mask is pretty iffy.

PKS also has a progressive sharpening routine called Super Sharpener that can produce similar results. It doesn't get a lot of attention by users but it can produce some interesting multi-band sharpening results that are often very useful when blended in with subtly.

The one area where I still think PKS is superior to pretty much anything out there is the Output Sharpener...while you _DO_ need to have the final pixel density determined prior to running, there's just no way anybody would EVER really take their images to the extreme you simply must take it for the purposes of sharpening for print.

The old "slightly crunchy" is simply way too little (and often wrongly applied) because a low resolution display can't give you the proper feedback for making visual determinations. That must be done on a trial and error basis to push the image detailing to the point just shy of breaking in the print and then back off. Which is what Bruce and I did for Output Sharpener...Bruce was shocked at just how BAD the image would look on screen and yet print with just the right amount of detail in the file. The ONLY thing a computer display is good at showing you is color and dynamic range and detail for the display–if the display is the final image output. If the final output is a print, a display is a poor predictor of what you must do to the image.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2007, 12:52:03 pm »

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I've tried Focus Magic and whereas I can see it being highly effective for forensic and medical purposes, for fine art photography I find it somewhat harsh.

It definitely can be, which is why I only use it kind of sparingly as a tool to undo the effect of the AA filter. Used in moderation (radius 3 or less, amount 50% or less) it does amazing stuff, used heavy-handedly, it is quite harsh. It's other handy use is to reduce motion blur, which it does quite well within reasonable limits. It's important to think of it as an edge sharpener, and not a contrast enhancer like USM. It's easy to confuse those functions, but they are not the same.

Quote
This is why all this peripheral dialog directed at Dan has been so frustrating to me --merely making fun of a technique or a man is not instructive.

My negative comments directed toward Dan and his action have several purposes:

1. To point out that even though in some areas of Photoshop usage the man has a well-deserved good reputation, that doesn't mean ke knows what he's talking about when it comes to sharpening, the advantages of 16-bit-per-channel editing, or color management.

2. To point out that Dan has a bad habit of throwing half-baked ideas out there, and uses his clout and reputation to squelch any discussion of the shortcomings or flaws in his ideas. This sharpening method is merely one example.

3. To demonstrate that this sharpening method is significantly flawed in both its concept and execution, specifically that it sharpens the noisiest parts of the image the most, and only addresses a small part of the sharpening issue (the "high treble" frequency band). My action has been out on the internet for 4 years or so, and I'm not the first person to recognize that masking off highlights and shadows is advantageous when sharpening. For Dan to disseminate a sharpening method that has flaws (oversharpened shadows) solved by techniques devised over 4 years ago (midtone masking) indicates he hasn't exactly done his homework about what is state of the art when it comes to sharpening. It's sort of like "rediscovering" the square wheel when round ones have been available for years.

4. Ultimately, to save others the time and hassle of wasting time fooling with sharpening methods that have problems that were solved years ago by much better techniques.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2007, 01:34:54 pm »

Quote
Interesting (FAR more interesting than Dan's BTW)...

Several comments; while converting to Lab for certain advantages derived from mask creation and isolation of luminance data, I would never want my original to go into Lab then back to RGB...I would prefer to spawn off a dupe image, do the work and bring it back into the original as a layer for blending in luminance...and in fact, the one aspect of your action that troubles me is the lack of adjustable layer results...trying to determine in/out based on looking at a mask is pretty iffy.

In defense of the LAB conversion, I'm converting to 16-bit first, and getting my money's worth out of the conversion by doing several rounds of sharpening plus the shadow/highlight adjustment before converting back to RGB. There's some image degradation, but in 16-bit mode one trip back and forth isn't that big of a deal. Regarding the layer issue, I came up with this before PKS came out, and got used to working with the image directly, and getting things right the first time without overdoing it and having to fade it back. It's not a workflow everyone is going to be comfortable with, and is not as sophisticated as PKS, but it works for me. It's also faster and less memory-intensive than staying in RGB and doing a Fade/Luminosity after each sharpening step or having an extra image layer to work with. That can make a big difference when working with stitched images or other large files.

Please don't think I'm saying my action is in all ways superior to PKS; it has advantages and disadvantages, but in many ways is not as sophisticated as PKS, and has a much steeper learning curve.

Quote
PKS also has a progressive sharpening routine called Super Sharpener that can produce similar results. It doesn't get a lot of attention by users but it can produce some interesting multi-band sharpening results that are often very useful when blended in with subtly.

The one area where I still think PKS is superior to pretty much anything out there is the Output Sharpener...while you _DO_ need to have the final pixel density determined prior to running, there's just no way anybody would EVER really take their images to the extreme you simply must take it for the purposes of sharpening for print.

I agree, the output sharpener in PKS is much more user-friendly than my action. I learned how "crunchy" to make images for inkjet printing the hard way. But that isn't necessarily the optimal way for new people to learn the ropes.

PKS is a great product; the main reason I brought up my sharpening action is to demonstrate that it's far more well-thought-out and theoretically sound than Dan's action, even though it's been out for over four years and hasn't been changed that much other than adding the shadow/highlight step when CS came out and a few tweaks of the default settings. I really should update it to create and sharpen a separate layer, but I haven't gotten around to it; I've been busy with Army stuff lately.
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