Epson 3800 and Advnaced B&W Printing

[azicit]

Finally purchased the Epson 3800 - I have my monitor calibrated and profiles in place and have  Photoshop controling color management as I have in the past

Question - How do I...or do I, utilize the advanced black and white options on the 3800 - Do I give over control to the printer for true black and white printing - I is confused.

I print primarily out of Lightroom now although I do have CS3 - Any suggstions for the most beneficial color/bw management printing workflow would be much appreciated

I had this down pat with my R1800 now I feel like I'm floundering

Thanks

[picnic]

Finally purchased the Epson 3800 - I have my monitor calibrated and profiles in place and have  Photoshop controling color management as I have in the past

Question - How do I...or do I, utilize the advanced black and white options on the 3800 - Do I give over control to the printer for true black and white printing - I is confused.

I print primarily out of Lightroom now although I do have CS3 - Any suggstions for the most beneficial color/bw management printing workflow would be much appreciated

I had this down pat with my R1800 now I feel like I'm floundering

Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll just say what I do--print b/w as though its color--IOW--WYSIWYG.   Just before I got my 3800 last December, I asked here what others were doing as far as mono prints.  Jack Flesher replied here--and Andrew Rodney here or on another forum.  They advised that they were printing monos as RGBs---with profiled printers (papers), calibrated monitors--all the normal color management.  I was elated as I print a lot of monos.  I tried the Advanced BW once--but I, too, did not want to turn over my control to the printer.  So--I've been printing 'normally' and am very happy.  

I softproof (if you haven't, you may think about buying the Camera to Print by Michael and Jeff Schewe) and print from PS mostly, but have tried both.  What works for me now--but is a bit awkward--is to do the round trip to PS from LR--bringing back the sized, softproofed, sharpened image to LR and print from there sometimes.  I still prefer sharpening with PKS (got a little OT, sorry LOL)--so, my workflow is rather hybrid--I'm using LR for most things--but I do do quite a bit in PS, so I just open in PS, then save back to LR---and haven't settled my printing quite yet--as you can see.  IF--I could softproof and was more comfortable with the sharpening in LR--I would have no qualms at all about printing from there.  Jeff hinted that softproofing/sharpening 'may' happen at some point in LR (in the C2P videos---OR I misread him LOL).

Diane

[smthopr]

Finally purchased the Epson 3800 - I have my monitor calibrated and profiles in place and have  Photoshop controling color management as I have in the past

Question - How do I...or do I, utilize the advanced black and white options on the 3800 - Do I give over control to the printer for true black and white printing - I is confused.

I print primarily out of Lightroom now although I do have CS3 - Any suggstions for the most beneficial color/bw management printing workflow would be much appreciated

I had this down pat with my R1800 now I feel like I'm floundering

Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really like the the B&W option on my 3800.  

Here's what I do:

1. use grey gamma 2.2 as your photoshop working space.
2. Select the correct paper type (ie. Premium Luster etc.)
3. Set the option in the printer driver to "dark" instead of the defualt "darker"
4. Print with all color correction off in photoshop

I find the prints a terrific match to my calibrated monitor, and the blacks are darker than when printing as RGB with profiles. Also, play around with the tone control in the driver with some small test prints to get the "color" that you like on your particular paper.

In all it's pretty easy to get great b&w prints using the advanced B&W option.

Have fun!

-bruce

[picnic]

the blacks are darker than when printing as RGB with profiles.

Yes, that's so---which is why I use softproofing.  I use adjustment layers to correct to the original image that I have processed.  A good understanding comes from watching how Jeff Schewe uses softproofing in the LL Camera to Print videos.  I was doing something just a bit differently, but his way works the best.

I'd try it both ways and see which I preferred.  I feel I have a lot more control over everything, including toning, doing it RGB, but others are happy with the ABW method.  I haven't been keeping up with the DigitalBlackandWhitePrint list but it was discussed quite a bit in the past and you can search through their archives.

Diane

[madmanchan]

Here's one way to print thru the ABW driver without dedicated profiles:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...w_no_gray_curve

I do make my own ABW profiles (mostly a linearization), but in general when one is printing without ABW profiles then the above workflow is fine.

As summarized in an earlier post, use a gamma of 2.2 and disable color management in PS when printing, and set the Tone curve to Dark, not Darker.

[azicit]

Thanks for the responses - looks like I better just test it out and see for myself. The idea of really good blacks is what drew me to the 3800 and it sounds like I would get that using the Printer Driver.

My current workflow is very similar to picnic - I am reluctant to turn things over to the printer.  I guess I'll dump some ink on the problem and do some comparisions

Thanks for the replies

[Tim Gray]

When I print BW I use quadtone rip http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html

[picnic]

When I print BW I use quadtone rip http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142323\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tim, I used QTR with my 2200.  I haven't felt the need to use it with the 3800 since the major reason I used it with the 2200 was to eliminate metamerism.  That is pretty much a thing of the past with the 3800.  Did you move from another printer using QTR to using it with the 3800---or do you just prefer its output to either RGB/WYSIWYG with softproofing and/or ABW??

Diane

[Tim Gray]

Tim, I used QTR with my 2200.  I haven't felt the need to use it with the 3800 since the major reason I used it with the 2200 was to eliminate metamerism.  That is pretty much a thing of the past with the 3800.  Did you move from another printer using QTR to using it with the 3800---or do you just prefer its output to either RGB/WYSIWYG with softproofing and/or ABW??

Diane
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually I use it with the 4000 and find I get much better neutrality than with the standard epson profiles.  In particular it's superb with Velvet Fine Art paper.  Even with a calibrated monitor (Nec Spectraview) the difference between transmitted and reflected light means that there's only so far you can go with soft proofing (at least for my aging eyes) and once it prints, even though it looks to be a good match to the monitor, when you compare paper to paper QTR vs the Epson drivers, the difference is striking.

[madmanchan]

QTR made a huge improvement on the 2200 and 4000 due to the far-from-gray-balanced behavior of that generation of Epson drivers and severe non-linearities. The yellow ink in UltraChrome was also highly prone to color shifting under different illuminants. Gray balance is significantly better with the K3 drivers. For ABW the response is nearly perfectly linear; with the standard RGB driver it's not so good, but it's compensated for by a good profile with sufficient neutral patches.

As I summarized in my ABW descriptions linked to above (applicable to the 3800):

ABW pros are (1) deeper blacks, (2) more linear behavior, (3) less metamerism, and (4) (theoretically) better longevity due to less use of the colored inks, more use of the black inks -- no use of C or M, only small use of Y.

ABW cons are (1) no soft-proofing unless you have special profiles made, (2) no split-toning.

For ultimate control over custom toning across the whole scale, printing through the standard RGB driver is still the way to go -- as described by Diane above.

[picnic]

For ultimate control over custom toning across the whole scale, printing through the standard RGB driver is still the way to go -- as described by Diane above.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I feel I should add that I always tone my prints to some degree--I never print 'neutral' b/w and sometimes use split toning.  To some eyes, they may even appear 'neutral' but I always warm them at the least.

Diane

[azicit]

That brings up another issue - 2.2 on grey gamma?- rewatched C2P and Schewe stated 1.8 Gamma -

Here's one way to print thru the ABW driver without dedicated profiles:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep...w_no_gray_curve

I do make my own ABW profiles (mostly a linearization), but in general when one is printing without ABW profiles then the above workflow is fine.

As summarized in an earlier post, use a gamma of 2.2 and disable color management in PS when printing, and set the Tone curve to Dark, not Darker.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[madmanchan]

If you send gray gamma 1.8 data directly to the ABW driver with the Tone curve set to Dark in the driver setting, you will get a print whose midtones are too dark, and whose shadows are compressed. You can use gray gamma 1.8 if you want, but I would advise choosing Normal or Light for the Tone choice instead in the ABW driver, instead of Dark.

If you are printing through the RGB driver then it doesn't matter what your gamma is because the ICC profile will compensate for it.

This is one area where I feel the Epson user guide should do a much more thorough job of explaining the driver's assumptions about the input (esp. since they don't provide ABW-specific profiles) and its implications. For example, printing directly from a RAW file in Lightroom may lead to unexpectedly dark results with the ABW driver because Lightroom will produce ProPhoto RGB data (which is gamma 1.8 encoded) to feed to the ABW driver.

[azicit]

In C2P they are not printing through the ABW printer driver - if you are just using Photoshop or Lightroom to manage printing should you set gray gamma to 1.8 or 2.2 - Until I watched C2P I didnt set this option at all in color management so now i'm even more "in the dark"

If you send gray gamma 1.8 data directly to the ABW driver with the Tone curve set to Dark in the driver setting, you will get a print whose midtones are too dark, and whose shadows are compressed. You can use gray gamma 1.8 if you want, but I would advise choosing Normal or Light for the Tone choice instead in the ABW driver, instead of Dark.

If you are printing through the RGB driver then it doesn't matter what your gamma is because the ICC profile will compensate for it.

This is one area where I feel the Epson user guide should do a much more thorough job of explaining the driver's assumptions about the input (esp. since they don't provide ABW-specific profiles) and its implications. For example, printing directly from a RAW file in Lightroom may lead to unexpectedly dark results with the ABW driver because Lightroom will produce ProPhoto RGB data (which is gamma 1.8 encoded) to feed to the ABW driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[picnic]

If you send gray gamma 1.8 data directly to the ABW driver with the Tone curve set to Dark in the driver setting, you will get a print whose midtones are too dark, and whose shadows are compressed. You can use gray gamma 1.8 if you want, but I would advise choosing Normal or Light for the Tone choice instead in the ABW driver, instead of Dark.

If you are printing through the RGB driver then it doesn't matter what your gamma is because the ICC profile will compensate for it.

This is one area where I feel the Epson user guide should do a much more thorough job of explaining the driver's assumptions about the input (esp. since they don't provide ABW-specific profiles) and its implications. For example, printing directly from a RAW file in Lightroom may lead to unexpectedly dark results with the ABW driver because Lightroom will produce ProPhoto RGB data (which is gamma 1.8 encoded) to feed to the ABW driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree they should be more explicit.  The other thing I'd love to see are the various settings shown as a preview on the actual print rather than Greg Gorman's.  Until you do some experimenting for yourself (or follow Eric's workflow--but still that may  not result in what YOU want) its really up in the air.  This is why I use RGB and adjustment layers after softproofing--I can adjust tonality as I choose, not the printer.  Same with toning---I don't always use exactly the same toning for each image and I prefer a somewhat warmer tone than pure neutral--its difficult, without experimentation, to be sure what you are getting in ABW.

Diane

[madmanchan]

I agree Diane. I think the next step for the ABW driver is giving the user more control over the toning options, esp. with regards to split toning. Right now it is possible to get very nice results, but without soft proofing quite a bit of experimentation with test prints is needed, as you say.

To give Epson credit, they've done a very nice job with the ABW driver -- it's a big step forward from the previous-gen (UltraChrome) where it was notoriously difficult to get good B&W with the native driver (hence the widespread use of QTR or ImagePrint). I would say the ABW driver currently is a very nice "first draft" -- excellent neutrality (if you want it), as well as basic and easy to interpret gamma controls (the Tone setting), as well as color toning options. Hopefully a "second draft" is in the works (but doesn't seem to be for the Vivid Magenta printers).

[madmanchan]

In C2P they are not printing through the ABW printer driver - if you are just using Photoshop or Lightroom to manage printing should you set gray gamma to 1.8 or 2.2 - Until I watched C2P I didnt set this option at all in color management so now i'm even more "in the dark"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The gray working space in PS only matters if you actually edit your images in grayscale mode. If you're editing your images in RGB color mode (where the individual R, G, and B channels just happen to equal, or near-neutral) then the gray working space isn't relevant; only the RGB working space matters in that case.

In general, if you're going to be printing thru the RGB driver, your choice of working space for B&W work isn't very important, as long as your monitor and your printer are both properly calibrated & profiled.

Printing thru the ABW driver is a different story, because by default it isn't color-managed.

[pfigen]

I print a lot of ABW on my 9800, and I send it Adobe RGB, which everyone knows is 2.2 gamma. I choose the correct paper type in the Epson driver. The default setting for ABW on the 9800 is "Neutral - Darker" and that setting provides a dead match to my Artisan. The advantage of using just the three black inks, of course, is that they are neutral and virtually fade free, being carbon pigment. I've made plenty of RGB neutral prints, and they look virtually the same as the ABW prints, but I am using custom profiles. Not sure why gamma 1.8 was being recommended for ABW, as that would definitely result in a too light print.