Epson 9800/9880 Canon Ipf8000/8100

[DougMorgan]

Hello all:

This is my first post here and after reading nearly every post that pertains I would like to ask opinions on a new wide format printer.   The more I research this the less clear the answer becomes.  

As background I print my own panorama work commercially on both my own Epson 4000 and an outside party's  phatte black'd 9800.   Until recently most of the orders were for smaller paper prints and the 4000 has been a real workhorse over the last four years and gallons of ink.   But the 4000 is on the slow side and for canvas I've been farming out what I couldn't print myself but now I find that a significant portion is being printed by others with a diminished profit and more importantly, convenience as I live a ways out of town and the huge files are cumbersome to FTP.

I've been examining my options and at first glance the following all seem acceptable:

1) buy a 9800 with rebates and keep the 4000.  When the 4000 dies buy imageprint or more likely another smaller format printer.

2) wait a bit and buy a 9880, same deal with the 4000.  The economics may be nearly the same as option 1 as well if the 9880 really has less clogging than the 9800.

3) buy an ipf8000 and expect to have some issues with little help from Canon.

4) wait for an expected ipf8100 and hope that Canon gets it's act together by the time it's available.  The Japanese sites seem to have some information about it but I couldn't find any dates using translate.

5) the status quo.  Or at least wait until the 4000 passes.

At any rate though I really hate that epson has not yet addressed the black issue with the 98xx, I would be using it mostly for canvas and could get by without switching inks.      It does seem though that at the very least they should offer the option to dump the light-light gray and put both blacks on board without the huge expense of imageprint.

The local professional photo outlet sells both the epson and canon (and have and use each themselves) and they are just as befuddled about this as I am.   Depending on the day they either want to toss their ipf5000 in the dumpster or trade the 9800+7600+ipf5000 for a single ipf8000.   Yesterday was the dumpster option the  time before they offered to sell me their 9800.

So does anyone have any opinions, comments, insights, thoughts, etc?  If I want to go the most conservative route and get a 9800 with rebate I probably have to order one within the week.   I rather easily came to the conclusion that the 24 inch printers are not worth it for my purposes so it's 44 or more.   Note that for various reasons HP is not in the running.

A specific questions to tack on ---- How are the ipf series with non-Canon papers, particularly canvas, particularly matte canvas?  I have been using epson's Piezo pro despite continual supply problems but could switch to breathing color's matte without many tears.   Smooth pearl and epson's enhanced matte are the other two most important papers.   Not much of a market for art papers but something like VFA or photo rag would be a distant fourth.

Thanks in advance.....
Doug Morgan

[John Hollenberg]

Recommend to ask your question on the iPF Printer Wiki.  Why did they want to toss out the iPF5000 on some days?  It's quirks are well known, but once you get everything set up and ironed out it produces flawless prints every single time.  There are a few unresolved issues, but not problems I would expect to cause a change of attitude about from day to day.

There have been very few reported problems with iPF8000.  The biggest different in the iPFX100 series are:  new black inks with a lot less bronzing, calibration for increased consistency as printer nozzles "age", some improvements in Photoshop plugin.  If you plan to print much B&W on glossy (Photo black) type media, I would wait for the iPF8100.  Of course, we don't know how much it will cost or when it will be released.

--John

[DougMorgan]

Thanks for the info John and I'll have to sign on to the wiki...

The local shop has had the ipf5000 replaced once  and I think they continue to have software issues (mac & photoshop CS2 or 3), communication issuses as well as  problems feeding thick stock a sheet at a time.  The operator said she has given up on art papers.     I believe their first printer (the one that was replaced) was one of the first off the boat.   Apparently the newest firmware fixed some of their earlier problems but they still have problems that are making them less than happy.  But it seems to depend on the day.  After Canon's dog and pony show they were ready to sell me their 9800, yesterday, not a chance.

Myself I'm pretty much a roll paper guy, not a mac type, don't think much of B&W (though I do print a couple additions by special order), and print only proofs from photoshop.   I get no demand for glossy.   I do care very much about colour consistency though and I think this and the various fixes would be my biggest reasons for interest in the x100 series over the x000.  I don't want to spend a lot of time noodling around with the thing -- I want to print with it, not play with it.

I guess what I would be looking for in the Canon is lower ink costs, higher speed, and the ability to print on matte or photo paper which would allow me to sell the 4000 and get my other desk back.   Less ink waste for cleaning cycles would be a serious benefit as well but from what I've heard and read it may be a trade off for head replacement costs.

Doug

[John Hollenberg]

The local shop has had the ipf5000 replaced once  and I think they continue to have software issues (mac & photoshop CS2 or 3), communication issuses as well as  problems feeding thick stock a sheet at a time. 

My guess about problems feeding thick stock is a bad/marginal roll feed unit.  When that is installed (and defective) you can get those kinds of symptoms.  Have they had the tech come out to fix problems?  We haven't had any unresolved reports of the problems you have been mentioning, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to those problems.

I guess what I would be looking for in the Canon is lower ink costs, higher speed, and the ability to print on matte or photo paper which would allow me to sell the 4000 and get my other desk back.   Less ink waste for cleaning cycles would be a serious benefit as well but from what I've heard and read it may be a trade off for head replacement costs.

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Ink costs to make prints probably are lower.  I find that my prints average around 1.1-1.2 ml/square foot (on Epson Premium Luster), while the general consensus is that Epson printers use about 2 ml/square foot.  

Less ink waste for cleaning cycles is possibly/probably true, depending.  I found out about service mode on the iPF5000 and discovered that the printer has used an average of about 2.5 ml ink per day to keep the heads clean (over 307 days).  That's about $42/month of ink.  However, no fooling around trying to get a clean nozzle check, wetting the parking station, doing another cleaning cycle, etc.  If your time is worth anything and you print a reasonable amount this is actually a pretty good deal.  I never do nozzle checks or manual cleanings, the printer is always ready to go and has never produced a bad print except from operator error  

--John

[DougMorgan]

I would think that a Canon service person has been to see their printer but I'm not sure as this is a smaller community and they would have to come up from Vancouver or possibly Calgary.  

At any rate it sounds as though the ink usage would be about the same for cleaning/clogs, at least compared to an older epson 4000.  Based on the waste ink tanks I had estimated that I lost about half a set of cartridges to cleaning in the last year, which is like 500 bucks or almost exactly 42/month.  $42/month definitely sounds better than 500/yr -- you can own a new printer for pennies a day........

I don't have my notes at hand but I would say that 2ml/foot is a little high but 1.2ml per foot would definitely be an improvement and based on an Epson ink price of .50 per ml and the amount of ink the printer has guzzled over the last year it would be close to two grand, if I figured right.  Correction, the savings would be almost $900, still a significant amount.

The wiki link doesn't seem to work and keeps saying wikispace not found but the link in the thread of the same name works fine.

Thanks and you have given me some encouraging numbers to play with.......
Any feel for if it would be worth waiting on the 8100?

Doug

[John Hollenberg]

I can't see anything wrong with the link, but it doesn't work for me either.  Try this:

http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com

We don't know enough about the 8100 (or 6100, etc.) yet to have a good feel for the practical differences.  There are some issues known for the iPF5000 that we hope are fixed (see Known Problems section on the Wiki), but haven't been able to get any information yet.  Also, some of the issues may affect you, some may not.  For example, Harman FB Al Gloss has the best gamut with a Media Type called Photo paper plus semi-gloss.  Unfortunately, the Media Type is locked out from the roll, so if you get a roll of this paper you wouldn't be able to print using that Media Type.  Another Media Type such as Special 4 might suffice, hasn't been tested yet.  This is an area we hope has been fixed with the new iPFX100 series... but still awaiting information.

--John

[DougMorgan]

Thanks John:

I am reading the wiki and some of the reviews linked to it now.  Lots of info.   Lots of new questions.

I've simplified my printing life and use just 4 basic papers and each has an alternate.  None are canon though and not all have profiles for the 8000 (though many do for the 5000).

Thanks again....
Doug

[Happyfish]

3) buy an ipf8000 and expect to have some issues with little help from Canon.

not sure what issues ? I have one working fine no issues  
I am sure some people have some so am curious what you have heard  



4) wait for an expected ipf8100 and hope that Canon gets it's act together by the time it's available. The Japanese sites seem to have some information about it but I couldn't find any dates using translate.
figures my gear is outdated already  hehehehe
I would say either one but if you can wait ? sure I think its usually better to get new models but again when is the new 8100 coming out ? and how long do you want to wait

[DougMorgan]

Thanks Happyfish.....

Actually I have read almost exactly 0 about the 8000, one way or another, except for some reworded press releases (reviews) from Canon.   For problems I have read dozens and dozens regarding the ipf5000, many critical of Canon support (especially in the beginning) so I guess I was extrapolating.

The support (or lack there of) isn't really a deal-breaker.   If support/repair worked the same as CPS for camera equipment it would be a known entity at least or something like epson with the possibility of a quick replacement.  

How long have you had the 8000?  Any figures on ink usage?  Do the above 5000 cleaning figures apply to the 8000?    Have you run much canvas through it and if so which brand(s)?  Any serious problems?  

Questions,  questions....
Doug

[John Hollenberg]

Actually I have read almost exactly 0 about the 8000, one way or another, except for some reworded press releases (reviews) from Canon.   For problems I have read dozens and dozens regarding the ipf5000, many critical of Canon support (especially in the beginning) so I guess I was extrapolating.

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The complaints about support were as follows:

1) Known defect in roll feed units requiring service calls and sometimes more than one - applied to iPF5000 only (not 8000), recent report on Wiki of new RFU shipped instead of making user wait for a service call.  Problem will certainly be gone in iPFX100 generation.

2) Refusing to replace defective ink cartridges - RESOLVED, now quickly sent out

3) No warranty on expensive printheads - now greatly improved by one year warranty

4) Horrible documentation - the Wiki has filled that gap making it not very important.

5) Issues like subtle banding in trailing inch of sheets fed from the cassette - RESOLVED - Wiki participants figured out that there was an adjustment that could be made from the printer control panel that Canon USA just didn't know about!

Overall I would say that the support issue is pretty much resolved, with the possible exception of slow service in some outlying areas.  If you needed your printer fixed very quickly under warranty, there MIGHT be some problems with timeliness compared to Epson, etc.  However, current info indicates probably on a par with other companies at this time.

--John

[Happyfish]

sorry my grammar is bad so hard to read what I write sometimes  
I am going to ramble out some thoughts and hope it helps

ahhhh OK thought I might have missed something  hehehe

I am thinking of getting a 5100 for some other stuff to print we do that is smaller I had thought of getting a 5000 but like you I read to many stories and scared me away from it  

I will wait a few more months and decide then on the 5100

also I think lots of people have the money to get a 5100 than a 44 inch printer so that narrows things down and of course the number of users etc....


I dont have any ink figures really  I am one of those that just print and dont care to much so far seems inline with the 5000 series when I first got the printer I think about 9 months ago ?? I checked the ink useage some to get a idea (forgot the numbers) but then checked again a month or so after that and they were the same really so I would say the 5000 numbers are a good gauge

we are expanding our business to do more printing and one of the reasons I loved the 8000 is the speed !!! and no cost on quality as the 6100 review this is a printer you can run in the best of the best mode and not wait all day or step down 1 notch and the thing flies

I dont do canvas really so cant say much I have gotten a few rolls in to test and so far the results are good (fredrix) but going to compare to some other companies in the next month or so

going to order some new harman and ilford paper in and see what I think of it and hope the as some are saying delicate surface is a non issue

my fav paper is the Hahn museum etching love love this paper in the printer

feel free to ask any thing I can try to help with  when I got this printer I was blind to it as many are !! there is very little going around on it

the way I chose is went to a place that had all 3 HP Epson canon and printed on them with my stuff and examined test prints and looked at what I print a lot of and what I wanted to stand out and chose the canon

my prints tend to be brighter (I am from Hawaii and did a lot of underwater work) so blues were important to me and greens and the colors with the canon seem more real but bright ! much like green plants on Maui seem brighter than other places ! hard to say in words but I think you might get what I mean if you have been to the islands


now if I was printing mostly BW work I might have gotten the HP
but the Canon in BW mode was so close to the HP it was hard to say what I liked better ? but both the HP and the canon were nicer than the Epson BW I felt (again my prints my BW sure others like the Epson for theirs no reason to start a way)

in color the Canon I thought was the most real bright and clean in the blues where Epson had this lean toward purplish color at times which was hard to get out yes it can be done but something about it stuck out as the blue was not the same as the Canon or HP
and in this case the Canon was better than the HP and both were better than the Epson

deeper darker reds in the shadows I think the Epson was the nicest
the deep shadows might have the edge ? but not saying the Canon or HP cant print shadows they can just fine  but the amount of lead on the Epson in this area was there just as the small lead of the HP in BW over the canon was there
and that small lead is not much of my printing needs and not as important as other things where the others lead

for canvas printing ? YIKES hard to say what I like as I do not print enough canvas to give my thoughts  sorry but maybe I will be very soon after my testing is done and I can compare that to the Epson ( I dont have the HP to test against )

again these are my personal thoughts  

I guess the real world side of me would say this if you master any of the printers they all do the job



if you had 3 prints each with the pros cons of each printer and 3 rooms with each displayed and walked into each room to examine you would not notice the dif right away you would have to walk back in then compare and then your brain would say AHHHHH now I see

[DougMorgan]

John:

I live in a small community in BC, Canada and the chances of a Canon repair guy showing up at my door are similar to winning the lottery  

I suppose I could dig on Canon's website but you seem to be the man with the answers.  Does Canon offer an onsite replacement deal like Epson?    AFAIK it still works with Epson that I can get them to ship a replacement unit (refurbished) to me and then I send mine back.  A charge is placed on the credit card when the replacement is sent and removed when my unit gets back to them.  

My biggest concern regarding the (past) complaints is that I can't take weeks of down time waiting for something from Canon.  With CPS (Canon professional services) Canon has replacements and loaners available for photography equipment and priority service for professionals.  Is there a similar program with these printers or are they covered under CPS?

Thanks again and again.....
Doug

[John Hollenberg]

John:

I live in a small community in BC, Canada and the chances of a Canon repair guy showing up at my door are similar to winning the lottery

Actually, that may not be as far out as you think.  The service company that Canon USA has a contract with flew repair guy to some state where the customer was hundreds of miles from anywhere, plus the guy who serviced my printer had been flown to Hawaii to service 2 iPF5000 printers.

I suppose I could dig on Canon's website but you seem to be the man with the answers.  Does Canon offer an onsite replacement deal like Epson?    AFAIK it still works with Epson that I can get them to ship a replacement unit (refurbished) to me and then I send mine back.  A charge is placed on the credit card when the replacement is sent and removed when my unit gets back to them. 

To my knowledge, no, but I may just not have heard about it.  Also, it may make a difference if you are in CPS, and it may be different in Canada.  Plus, they may have changed their policy.  In this case you really do need to contact Canon Canada to get an informed answer.  Don't trust my answer on this one  

--John

[DougMorgan]

Thanks Happy Fish!

I haven't been to Hawaii but I have spent some time in tropical places so I think I appreciate what you mean about colour.   Though after a long Canadian winter grey starts to look like a bright colour.

I've seen output from the 5000 but not the 8000: I assume that they are basically identical.   Unfortunately I didn't attend Canon's big show a couple weeks ago in Vancouver as the synopsis they published didn't have much that interested me, not enough at least for a four hour drive each way.  Later I find out they had an 8000 setup as well as the new camera I was interested in.  D'oh.

Thanks for the insights and I think I need to get some of my own stuff printed as you did.  I don't have any interest in the HP so it's basically just epson and canon.

Doug

[Visuals4Exhibits]

Hello,

I am from Belgium and owner of a Canon iPF8000 since several months now.

We were searching for a very high definition printer, and Canon became my choice because of the 12 colors and the printing speed.

I make my own output profiles, and with 12 colors you have a very large gamut with intense, vivid colors that outstands any 6 or 8 color printer like Epson or HP.

I had the concern about the ink consumption, but even there I was surprised...  I have a consumption of maximum 9ml per square meter when taking the heaviest type of file that I could find, but mostly it consumes like 6ml per square meter...

The speed is amazing... For an image of 914mm x 2500mm, it takes in 1200dpi mode just about 10 minutes without any sign of banding or whatever... In 2400dpi it takes like 15 minutes to print the image.

Because of the big productions we do, I use Onyx ProductionHouse rip instead of the Garo driver.

The service of Canon is here in Belgium very good.  When calling for a problem, they are here mostly the next day, some times even within 4  hours...

I used a lot of printers in the past 10 years like Encad, Epson, Mutoh, Colorspan, HP, ... and Canon is realy what I am/was looking for.  I ordered an iPF9000 last week, for the larger printjobs.

The new 9100/8100 are embded with a spectrometer to do your own profiling, but I prefer to do it with my Eye_one Uv cut....  There is also the 8000s or 9000s that comes with (only) 8 colors but doubles the speed of the regular 12colors 8000/9000 series.

Hopes this helps,

Cheers,

Visuals4Exhibits

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hello,



The new 9100/8100 are embded with a spectrometer to do your own profiling, but I prefer to do it with my Eye_one Uv cut....  There is also the 8000s or 9000s that comes with (only) 8 colors but doubles the speed of the regular 12colors 8000/9000 series.

Hopes this helps,

Cheers,

Visuals4Exhibits
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[a href=\"http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5667]http://www.proimagingsupplies.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=5667[/url]

I wonder who has it right but the above page says sensors for printer calibration on the iPF8100 but no mention of a spectrometer or profile creation on that model. So in essence like the 5100 and 6100, as expected.


Ernst Dinkla

try:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Scott Martin]

Myself I'm pretty much a roll paper guy, not a mac type, don't think much of B&W (though I do print a couple additions by special order), and print only proofs from photoshop...   I guess what I would be looking for in the Canon is lower ink costs, higher speed, and the ability to print on matte or photo paper which would allow me to sell the 4000 and get my other desk back. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Doug, it sounds like your local shop isn't very knowledgeable and from what you have said, the 8x00 is for you. I'm seeing no problems at all and only exuberant owners among the 12+ clients of mine that have the 8000. New owners tend to get a little hands-on with these printers and conclude "Jeez this is fantastic - to heck with Epson." The machines are well made and at ~$4000 the 8000 is hard to beat. I hear there are ~40 left right now. Epson's rebates are over and with only 24 9800s left and the 9880 still 2+ months away from reaching end users they are not being discounted.

I do care very much about colour consistency though and I think this and the various fixes would be my biggest reasons for interest in the x100 series over the x000.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So far consistency has been fantastic like Epsons but like you I like the idea behind the on board calibration on the x100 series. Even Epson's drift over time with heavy use. The 8100 will cost a good bit more than what the 8000 is going for today. Canon has told me they expect to announce the 8100 and 9100 tomorrow at PhotoPlusExpo.

The new 9100/8100 are embded with a spectrometer to do your own profiling, but I prefer to do it with my Eye_one Uv cut....[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is not correct. They use a more basic and affordable colorimeter that allows it to calibrate but not profile. That way you can profile just once (with an external package) and calibrate often to ensure consistency and compatibility with that one profile.

[DougMorgan]

Thanks for the reply Scott and I've looked through your website as well....


The local shop does have a fair bit of experience doing their own printing and they are dealers for Canon, Nikon, Epson, Pentax etc.  They use a 7600, 9800, and Canon 5000.    Previously they've had a 4800 (replaced by 5000), a 4000 and before the 9800 a Canon 6400 (or a similar model).    I think they originally got one of the 1st Canon 5000's in Canada but it was replaced as defective.     There is no local support from Canon so that seems to be a luxury south of the border only (same for epson and, I assume HP).  As I said, some days they seem very happy with it, others not.   Support for the machine seems to be a continual problem in Canada at least.  But this is true for photography equipment as well as wait times for service are 3 or 4 times as long as in the USA.   Canon Canada (subsidiary of Canon USA) seems to charge more but pay less and the techs must be migrating south.

That's good to hear about the colour consistency.  I haven't heard of any specific complaints about it but the introduction of the calibration unit in the x100 series makes me think -- is it just a marketing point against the HP aps?  Or is it a needed improvement?  

I don't mind a few days learning the ropes, getting a machine set up and tuned up but I have no interest in continual mucking about.  I'm a photographer  printing my own work, not a professional printer.   Someone referring to the other brand said that after 6 months or more of ownership they really love their printer x, when it's working properly.   I don't want printer X.    

I understand the calibration unit in the x100 units.  You were quoting another poster.

My current position is to wait and see what the price and shipping dates are going to be for the 8100 as well as what the market thinks of the 9880.   If Epson had truely improved the 9880 (like the 10880) I would already have one on order but greed got the best of them (again) so here I am.   It galls me that Epson continues to make these tiny, non-backwards-compatible improvements that would be more in tune with  a firmware update than a new model.

Thanks again
Doug

[Scott Martin]

I haven't heard of any specific complaints about it but the introduction of the calibration unit in the x100 series makes me think -- is it just a marketing point against the HP aps?  Or is it a needed improvement?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it's safe to say that it is in response to HP's spectro. Considering HP's slightly disappointing implementation and Epson's lack of anything I think Canon's solution is quite elegant and affordable.

I understand the calibration unit in the x100 units.  You were quoting another poster.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thought you might say that! If I strip out the name in the reply code then it doesn't post correctly so I don't know of a better way to reposed to several people's comments in one reply. If anyone knows a better way let me know.

My current position is to wait and see what the price and shipping dates are going to be for the 8100 as well as what the market thinks of the 9880.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They won't release the 8100 units until the 8000 units are gone which should take 3 months. Expect an even better price cut on the leftover 8000 units shortly! I just bought the very last 9000 Canon had this morning so 9100 units are officially available for shipping next week.

[DougMorgan]

They won't release the 8100 units until the 8000 units are gone which should take 3 months. Expect an even better price cut on the leftover 8000 units shortly! I just bought the very last 9000 Canon had this morning so 9100 units are officially available for shipping next week.
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The logic of this escapes me.   I would think if the 8100 is really ready to go they'd want to get it out and generating some interest rather than just slowing sales of the old model.   Judging from the small amount of interest in the 8000 that I've found on the internet, I don't think it was big seller anyway, certainly nothing like the HP or 9800.

But I guess I'll have to see what kind of discounts Canon Canada comes up with for the 8000.

Thanks for the info on the calibration.  I kind of suspected a marketing issue.  The HP APS unit is not an attraction for me and leaves me with similar questions.  Also from user comments it seems to be worth no more than it's cost, maybe less.

Thanks
Doug