Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Nikon D3 AF..  (Read 8511 times)

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« on: September 24, 2007, 03:19:10 pm »

Just looking at the images (near the bottom of the page..)

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3/page4.asp

Looks like the new AF only really covers the size af an APS chip

ie the spacing is far too close to the centre

(one of my personal bugbears)

I a seeing what I think I am seeing

When will nikon get it right - maybe not with this one

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Mort54

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 590
    • http://
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 01:13:21 pm »

Quote
Just looking at the images (near the bottom of the page..)

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3/page4.asp

Looks like the new AF only really covers the size af an APS chip
Hi Morgan. Many people have made similar comments on other forums, but Nikon isn't alone in this. The AF coverage of all of the Canon full frames looks virtually identical, with the sensors clustered toward the center. I'm not sure what kind of studies went into this placement, but I assume both Nikon and Canon can't be totally stupid (or maybe that's a rash assumption on my part :-).
Logged
I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 06:13:09 pm »

Quote
Nikon and Canon can't be totally stupid (or maybe that's a rash assumption on my part :-).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No they arent stupid - there is surely bugetery gains in using the same sensor in both chip size cameras

I just think it may lead to a typical crop of the images meaning nikon is still only around the 9mp mark - which is still a bit rubbish if like me you are privilaged enough to own a 22mp camera too

For me this was a real downer on the D3 - at 11mp they are kind of pushing it anyway in terms of what they claim is decent

I still use a 13mp kodak which is great at 100 ISO

I am still not sure if this camera (the D3) convinces me to make another investment

and therefore pushes me to a 2nd hand 1ds2 when the canon3 becomes available

which  still leaves me in need of a massive investment in re-lensing

While I dont mind paying D80 money for tools that are not actually 'the answer' the D3 still seems like it may be a 'stopgap' rather than 'the answer'

If that is the case I will keep my money in my wallet

All I am after is a decent speed machine that competes in quality compared to say my SLRn or my old ProBack - I dont expect a DSLR to match my blad

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 08:12:41 pm »

Quote
For me this was a real downer on the D3 - at 11mp they are kind of pushing it anyway in terms of what they claim is decent

and therefore pushes me to a 2nd hand 1ds2 when the canon3 becomes available

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is OT to this thread, but most of the people who actually bothered checking found out that the D2x was already in the very same ball park as the 1ds2 in terms of resolving power (those guys' findings were typically discounted as "pixel peeping"...). 5D owners said the same... and Canon is now saying that the 10 MP 1d3 is the highest resolving camera in their line up short of the 1ds3...

I don't believe that the d3 will resolve less than the D2x.

Second hand 1ds2 will probably sell for about the same price as the d3 if not more (at least here in Japan), and appear to be a poor deal IMHO especially if you consider lens quality as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 04:00:22 am »

Quote
This is OT to this thread, but most of the people who actually bothered checking found out that the D2x was already in the very same ball park as the 1ds2 in terms of resolving power
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I dont know if it is OT

Basically my 22mp MF solution I am very happy with - even since 39mp came about I have felt no need to change - it was expensive but I feel it offers value as it will last a few years

My niggle is buying expenwsive DSLRs as a stopgap mesure until the tool I actually require comes along - this is poor value for money

Nothing has yet convinced me to get rid of my SLRn - the last expensive DSLR i bought


IMO 35mm lenses focusing and view size can sustain about 16mp

I have a gut feeling that the D3 is still a stopgap

(particularly for me who tends to prefer quality over FPS and ISO)

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 07:22:17 pm »

Quote
No they arent stupid - there is surely bugetery gains in using the same sensor in both chip size cameras
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It does indeed seem to be the same AF sensor in the D3 and D300: compare [a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond300/page4.asp]the D300 AF sensor[/url] to the D3 AF sensor.

I believe that Nikon also does this in its only other current 24x36mm model: the F6 (that's a film camera folks) has somewhat tightly clustered AF points due to sharing this component with the D2X. And apparently Canon is doing the same, indicating that 24x36mm format does not sustain its own AF sensor designs, even for state-of-the-art models!

(Added: it seems that the 1DS models use the AF modules designed for the 1.3x crop 1D models, so at last the proportions are closer.)

Does this sound slightly like the strangely primitive state of AF in medium format?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 07:35:22 pm by BJL »
Logged

meyerweb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 08:28:16 pm »

Quote
No they arent stupid - there is surely bugetery gains in using the same sensor in both chip size cameras

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think this has anything to do with it. Canon used the same 45 point AF array on the EOS 1 series and EOS 3 well before they had any digital crop cameras to worry about. And none of Canon's crop bodies use the same AF array now.

I suspect, but don't really know, that there's a physical limit to how far off-center a phase detection AF sensor can be and still work accurately.  The further off-center the sensor is the more oblique the light rays hitting it will be and, I think, the smaller the difference in signal reaching the two halves of the sensor.

Another issue is the size of the secondary mirror that reflects the image to the AF sensors. The larger the area covered, the bigger the secondary mirror required, which may have impacts beyond simply cost. (Size, mass, alignment precision, etc.)

Bob
Logged

inissila

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2007, 08:17:08 am »

Quote
Does this sound slightly like the strangely primitive state of AF in medium format?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

it's the current state of AF technology. The center sensor is the most accurate and accuracy and sensitivity drop towards the edges. I don't know what the technical reason for this is, but it's not the (supposed) low sales of 35mm cameras.
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 10:54:09 am »

Quote
it's the current state of AF technology. The center sensor is the most accurate and accuracy and sensitivity drop towards the edges. I don't know what the technical reason for this is, but it's not the (supposed) low sales of 35mm cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150660\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont care about technology

Do potential users think that this is going to affect the handling for someone who wants to shoot tight uprights portraits with the head in focus

Will it lead to a choice of lose focus or crop - either leading to images that dont compete with top end canons with thier higher MP

Is there some mode which will follow focus outside the zone - ie pickit up in the zone and recompose

And most important for the tight upright portrait shooting should I be buying a D300 or a D2Xs instead (I top out a 800 ISO which is no good on the D2x IMO)



S
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 11:06:35 am by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

julian_love

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
    • www.julianlove.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2007, 02:56:23 pm »

Quote
I don't think this has anything to do with it. Canon used the same 45 point AF array on the EOS 1 series and EOS 3 well before they had any digital crop cameras to worry about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is true - I used to shoot with an EOS 3, and the AF points in my 1Ds and 1Ds II are in exactly the same layout. It only ever covered the central 50% or so of the frame.


Quote
Do potential users think that this is going to affect the handling for someone who wants to shoot tight uprights portraits with the head in focus

Will it lead to a choice of lose focus or crop - either leading to images that dont compete with top end canons with thier higher MP
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

People have been able to take perfectly focused portraits without cropping, and many other shots with the area of interest near the edge of the frame, for decades - long before AF even existed! Modern AF systems hardly prevent you from doing this.... I simply select the closest point, focus and recompose. It's still better than using a single center focus point and recomposing. If you consistently need to crop to get the point of focus near the edge of the frame while shooting a stationary subject then you are simply suffering from poor technique.

Julian
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 02:57:34 pm by julian_love »
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2007, 03:09:59 pm »

Quote
I simply select the closest point, focus and recompose. It's still better than using a single center focus point and recomposing. If you consistently need to crop to get the point of focus near the edge of the frame while shooting a stationary subject then you are simply suffering from poor technique.

Julian
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a hassy H1 and am happy focusing and recomposing on stationary subjects

I am interested in the nikon for shooting movement -

Once againg being nikon (I am stuck with lenses from 14 to 600) I would appear to be between a rock and ahard place because a well framed shot will proably be an 8mp crop whereas a crop from a 1DS2/3 will be larger 11-MP

This quality is also available on the D300

The trouble with the D300 is the puny chip and revolting affect it has on my lenses at the wide end

And I bet the AF (on the 300) wont be as good - it never is on the small nikons compqared to the pro nikons


So probably i'll buy both and have to just tell my self it is still cheaper than a decent canon

At least the two will make a great pair on the hoof D3 20-35, and D300 80-200

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2007, 08:17:06 pm »

Quote
People have been able to take perfectly focused portraits without cropping, and many other shots with the area of interest near the edge of the frame, for decades - long before AF even existed! Modern AF systems hardly prevent you from doing this.... I simply select the closest point, focus and recompose. It's still better than using a single center focus point and recomposing.Julian
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Manual Focus cameras came with very good focusing screens. Current DSLRs have screens optimized for brightness and clarity but are really bad for judging focus and depth of field. In some you can change them out.
Logged

CJL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.imageswest.ca
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2007, 09:59:33 am »

Quote
I just think it may lead to a typical crop of the images meaning nikon is still only around the 9mp mark -


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm really struggling to understand your logic here... are you saying that, for some reason, you would want to crop the images down to just what's covered by the AF sensor?  
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2007, 02:39:13 pm »

Quote
I'm really struggling to understand your logic here... are you saying that, for some reason, you would want to crop the images down to just what's covered by the AF sensor?   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I want to shoot  really tight shots, sometimes using the extremities of the frame as the focus area

typically half length uprights of models walking, running or even sprinting or cycling towards me

so his/her head would be right at the top of the frame and not in one of the zones

I want to focus on the face not the body because at a wide ap the face will be OOF

But this doesnt appear to be possible with the D3 (versus the D2x or D300 where the focus areas are more spread as a % of the chip area)

So I have to frame loose and crop back in post - leaving me with a smaller file than the D300

Attached is an image, A is a full frame off a DX camera, B is what I would like to be able to shoot full frame - no cropping with the D3 but wont be able to

I would call frame a 'a bit loose' - I know many wouldnt

I am very obsessional about shooting full frame at 12mp when I am used to 22mp

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2007, 02:55:07 pm »

I have tried to show a couple of images here with the focus zones overlayed

I think the scale is right

In both particulaly the cyclist I would suggest there is significant risk of back focus at a wide ap

Teasy maybe - but I this is not a cheap camera and should be the best tool for sport 'ever'

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2007, 03:14:59 pm »

In this one you would be looking to hit the top left (in the image) eye..

S
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

CJL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.imageswest.ca
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2007, 10:15:51 pm »

Quote
I want to shoot  really tight shots, sometimes using the extremities of the frame as the focus area

typically half length uprights of models walking, running or even sprinting or cycling towards me

so his/her head would be right at the top of the frame and not in one of the zones

I want to focus on the face not the body because at a wide ap the face will be OOF

But this doesnt appear to be possible with the D3 (versus the D2x or D300 where the focus areas are more spread as a % of the chip area)

So I have to frame loose and crop back in post - leaving me with a smaller file than the D300

Attached is an image, A is a full frame off a DX camera, B is what I would like to be able to shoot full frame - no cropping with the D3 but wont be able to

I would call frame a 'a bit loose' - I know many wouldnt

I am very obsessional about shooting full frame at 12mp when I am used to 22mp

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Must be a real challenge with your SLRn, then?
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Nikon D3 AF..
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2007, 11:17:39 pm »

Quote
Must be a real challenge with your SLRn, then?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154018\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The SLRn is a heap of sh*t in terms of useability

I have only used AF for surfing MF all the rest

Nice files though (on base ISO)

D200 was OK for useability but looked soft - that got nicked - and terrible crop of course

I have been frustrated by Nikon since F5 which was FF and good for 50-800 ISO (too narrow focussing zone on that too BTW) - hence buying a blad - which also has unusable AF - it should be called 'focus aid' not AF on the blad

S
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 11:20:34 pm by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK
Pages: [1]   Go Up