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thsinar

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« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2007, 11:02:31 pm »

that's where you don't understand and are mislead (by some marketing BS?):

If one calls this full-frame or whatever, a 28mm is a 28mm, period. In other words, the Hasselblad 28mm will produce the exactly SAME image when used on a 33MPx Hasselblad back, or a 33 MPx Leaf back, or a 33 Mpx Sinar back.

Best regards,
Thierry

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The 28 is an HCD lens and is a true 28mm for digital coverage.
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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2007, 11:05:58 pm »

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Is this a joke? That site refers to FOV, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT focal length.

Now let's return this thread to the topic of Hy6/AFi cameras....please!
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Thats exactly what I'm talking about!  I want to take the widest angle picture possible.

And to return to the thread, I apprciate Thierry actually answering the original question.
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thsinar

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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2007, 11:09:21 pm »

sorry, if I have to ask: what was the original question of this tread?! it actually started with a link and with no question.

And it seems that I have answered all and any request here.

Please correct me if wrong.

Best regards,
Thierry

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And to return to the thread, I apprciate Thierry actually answering the original question.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2007, 11:15:57 pm »

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Goto Mamiyas website, I'll make it easy and give you the link here  -  http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2284&id3=2285  -  now scroll down and read the specs, notice how they change from film to Digital.

Any lens you use on any camera where the actual sensor size is smaller than the actual film size gives you a crop factor and makes the lens appear longer then it is.  It's like a Canon 1Ds MarkIII which has a full frame chip vs a 1D MarkIII which has a smaller chip and has a 1.3x Lens focal length conversion factor.  All of the Hasselblad HC lenses will also have this conversion factor when used with a DB, it happens to be 1.1x when used with a 22 or 39mp sensor.  The 28 is an HCD lens and is a true 28mm for digital coverage.
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A 28mm lens has a fixed field of view for any given film/sensor format. Period.

Because sensor and film sizes vary, the terms "equivalent" focal length or "crop factor" are used to help give a rough idea of the change in view DUE TO THE CHANGE IN FILM OR SENSOR SIZE. The focal length, however is the focal length AND NEVER CHANGES.

The image circle a lens projects can vary, however, WITHOUT CHANGING THE FOCAL LENGTH. The Hasselblad 28mm has a smaller image circle matched to the sensor size in an effort to improve resolution.
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thsinar

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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2007, 11:19:00 pm »

Interesting analogy!

 

Thierry

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It's like calling a fart an "interesting flavour".

EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2007, 11:27:39 pm »

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Greg,
In order to conceal the shortcoming of this lens Hasselblad calls it "full frame". EPd
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What shortcoming are you refering to? "Digital" view camera lenses have much smaller image circles than "film" view camera lenses. This is not to "conceal" a "digital" view camera lens "shortcoming". The purpose is to allow the lens design to concentrate the resolving power in a smaller area in order to increase resolution. This is an over simplification, but optical design is a rather complex subject for discussion in depth on a message board.

Any input Thierry?
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thsinar

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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2007, 11:37:41 pm »

No special input from me on this particular lens, although I know a good friend of mine using it and happy with the result itself (after correction). I cannot comment on "if it effectively resolves more or better" due to this particular construction. This has to be proven.

Lens design is complicated enough to start a discussion in depth here, right. Not only is the design itself relevant, but as well the assembling of each lens: when one knows that from one same lens type to the other they are (sometimes huge) differences in rendition and in overall quality, then better not startind this discussion!

I would however (and this is only my opinion) question the correction of aberrations by software means (again, only my opinion). This has certainly also its limitations, if not disadvantages.

Best regards,
Thierry

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What shortcoming are you refering to? "Digital" view camera lenses have much smaller image circles than "film" view camera lenses. This is not to "conceal" a "digital" view camera lens "shortcoming". The purpose is to allow the lens design to concentrate the resolving power in a smaller area in order to increase resolution. This is an over simplification, but optical design is a rather complex subject for discussion in depth on a message board.

Any input Thierry?
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« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2007, 11:59:24 pm »

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No special input from me on this particular lens, although I know a good friend of mine using it and happy with the result itself (after correction). I cannot comment on "if it effectively resolves more or better" due to this particular construction. This has to be proven.

Lens design is complicated enough to start a discussion in depth here, right. Not only is the design itself relevant, but as well the assembling of each lens: when one knows that from one same lens type to the other they are (sometimes huge) differences in rendition and in overall quality, then better not startind this discussion!

I would however (and this is only my opinion) question the correction of aberrations by software means (again, only my opinion). This has certainly also its limitations, if not disadvantages.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thanks for your feedback. Optical design requires consideration of a long series of trade-offs in design to acheive the desired end result. Time will tell if incorporating software correction into the actual lens design yields tangible benefits in actual application.

Regarding my (over simplified) notion as to why Sinar (and Rodenstock and Schneider) digital view lenses have much smaller image circles than their film counterparts–is the purpose basically to permit higher resolution than is practical with large film image circles?

Some cynic might wonder if digital view lens makers are charging a higher price for less coverage to conceal a devious plot to fool consumers into paying more for less!
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mattlap2

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« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2007, 12:29:01 am »

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What shortcoming are you refering to? "Digital" view camera lenses have much smaller image circles than "film" view camera lenses. This is not to "conceal" a "digital" view camera lens "shortcoming". The purpose is to allow the lens design to concentrate the resolving power in a smaller area in order to increase resolution. This is an over simplification, but optical design is a rather complex subject for discussion in depth on a message board.

Any input Thierry?
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My guess is they constrained the imagine circle to cover the chip only.   If it was used say with a film back and full 6x4.5 film you would more than likely start to see fall off as you get to the edges of the image circle.

If you take an extremely wide angle view camera lens, as you get to the edges of the image circle you will gradually see a fall off.    Hence the need for graduated center filters for these lenses.

My guess is Hasselblad took a lens to the point they needed and no further.    What could be worse than someone complaining about a crappy lens on 6x4.5 film that it was never designed for?
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thsinar

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« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2007, 12:59:19 am »

You're welcome!

I would like to detail a bit the reasons and causes (of the need or not) of lens resolution.

Speaking about film: basically yes, LF vs. MF lenses do have bigger image circles (thus a bigger lens angle) BUT need less resolution due to the film size used (which "compensates" for this "lack" of resolution), same for MF vs. SF lenses. But this is (IMO) not chosen by the lens manufacturers: it is simply much more difficult, if not impossible to get the same resolution on the whole coverage of such a LF lens (and if possible, at which price?).

Further, LF lenses DO NEED to have much larger image circles as the film size used (4x5", 5x7" or 8x10") to enable doing the movements like shifts, tilts and swings. This is quite different than a given MF lens (or SF lens) which is used on a MF fixed body (or SF fixed body) and without movement possibilities. So there is a kind of compromise made here: less resolution at the edge BUT possibilties of shifts/tilts/swings with a 4x5" film.

It is basically a fact that any good SF lens and any good MF lens will "out-power" a LF (film) lens: they simply don't have the necessary coverage (lens angle) for LF.

If one considers now "LF" digital (understand "LF" here as "view camera"): since the sensors currently used are "much" smaller than almost any given MF film format (6x12; 6x9; 6x6, with the exception of 645), it needs basically less image circle on these "LF" digital lenses, first to cover and then even to allow significant and sufficient movements of the sensor within the image circle. That's basically why the "LF" digital lenses have such a smaller image circle. One does simply not need it to be bigger since it simply needs to cover much less surface. But also important is, that it needs much less shift/tilt/swing possibilities on a smaller capture medium: a Scheimpflug angle of e.g. 5°-10° on a 4x5" format would need about 1°-2° for the same sharpness plane on a digital sensor (for the same image crop).

If one considers now MF digital (without shift, tilt or swing possibilities), then it becomes obviously more logical (for a lens manuacturer) to concentrate the efforts on "narrowing" the lens angle to the specific used sensor size. This is what it is all about with the 28mm Hasselblad. To which extend it has effectively increased the resolving power of this lens by designing it this way, is something I cannot answer (if there is an increased resolution, which has to be proven), for not having been able to compare it with another "traditional" 28mm designed for MF film and then used on such a digital sensor. And to which extend this has an effective and visual effect on the resulting prints, with the current sensors, this is also something which I am unable to say. I personnaly doubt it has. But then again, it is only my personal opinion and "guess": don't put me at the point of your gun.

For me it seems at the moment more important and relevant to have a 35mm lens available for the Hy6, which has certainly (obviously!) a longer focal length then a 28mm BUT, which covers the 6x6 format. That is certainly an advantage for possibly coming larger sensors AND for the use with film. Should a larger sensor come out in the near (or not so near) future, then obviously this very same 35mm will show its full importance and advantage over the 28mm which will be impossible to use on this larger format.
I can however understand the relevance and importance for some users of having a 28mm available now.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thanks for your feedback. Optical design requires consideration of a long series of trade-offs in design to acheive the desired end result. Time will tell if incorporating software correction into the actual lens design yields tangible benefits in actual application.

Regarding my (over simplified) notion as to why Sinar (and Rodenstock and Schneider) digital view lenses have much smaller image circles than their film counterparts–is the purpose basically to permit higher resolution than is practical with large film image circles?

Some cynic might wonder if digital view lens makers are charging a higher price for less coverage to conceal a devious plot to fool consumers into paying more for less!
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 02:44:42 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2007, 01:56:01 am »

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You're welcome!
 But then again, it is only my personal opinion and "guess": don't put me at the point of your gun.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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Your posts and replies are always thoughtful, honest, respectful and informative. Thanks for the thorough response.
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thsinar

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« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2007, 02:35:05 am »

Trying to be always honest and respectful is sometimes difficult, but IMO the biggest "asset" one can have.

This topic seems to come to its end (?), so it permits me to catch my flight in time: 11 hours in a plane are much tougher than being here on LL, believe me!

Best regards,
Thierry

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Your posts and replies are always thoughtful, honest, respectful and informative. Thanks for the thorough response.
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« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2007, 03:15:46 am »

Any update regarding the 6*6 film back for the Hy6? Is it in production yet?

Thanks

Nik

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BUT, which covers the 6x6 format. That is certainly an advantage for possibly coming larger sensors AND for the use with film.
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yaya

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« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2007, 03:34:48 am »

I wonder if one of the CF owners here (likely the only back that can be mounted on both platforms) can test the two mentioned 28mm lenses side by side with the same back and tell us what the differences are, in terms of resolution, sharpness, usable aperture range, falloff, distortion etc. (the latter being corrected by software or not).

Yair
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« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2007, 03:50:09 am »

Sorry,

I would love to do so however the CF cannot be used with the 28mm Hasselblad. I think you know that Yair
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« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2007, 04:20:40 am »

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I've always been curious as to why I've never seen a discussion regarding "open" or "closed" digital backs. If you own a Leaf or Phase One back for Hasselblad "V" or "H" or Contax or Rollei etc. and you'd really love to use your back with a 28mm lens on an SLR body–why not buy the Mamiya 28mm lens and body (an "open system"), take off the digital back camera mount, mount a Mamiya 645 plate and switch back and forth with your existing system? It isn't the most convenient solution, but it's easily done by removing four screws and attaching a different camera mount. The back is part of an "open" system is it not?... or is it only cameras that are "open" or "closed"?

Of course, I'm trying to stir a little thoughtful debate as I realize that you (the user) can't switch Leaf or Phase from one 6x6 or 645 system to another by interchangeable camera adapters. Other digital backs will let you do that. More choice is a good thing, right?

So the question is... are some digital backs part of a "closed system" by limiting what cameras you can use them with, while other backs are "open systems" that let you switch camera makes and models as you desire? Just wondering if only cameras are considered "open or closed".
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The best would be for everybody to sit around a table and define a comon interface, both mechanical and electronic that all bodies and backs would share.

As far as changing easily camera adapters on the back, sure that would be a most welcome feature if it can be done while ensuring the required level of tolerances.

It is true that camera and lenses end up looking cheap compared to the back and that there might be some people switching the whole system while keeping the back to be able to use a specific lens (like the Mamiya 28mm that I happen to own).

Regards,
Bernard

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« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2007, 04:24:14 am »

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Sorry,

I would love to do so however the CF cannot be used with the 28mm Hasselblad. I think you know that Yair
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So the next closest thing would be a P45/AFDII and the H3DII-39 I guess, as they both use the exact same sensor size so the debate about FOV, focus, coverage etc. can also be settled?

Yair
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thsinar

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« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2007, 04:28:16 am »

This feature/possiblity exists with Sinarbacks since the begining, easily and quickly (2 minutes for newcomers and 1 minute for others).

Best regards,
Thierry

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As far as changing easily camera adapters on the back, sure that would be a most welcome feature if it can be done while ensuring the required level of tolerances.

Regards,
Bernard
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« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2007, 04:32:23 am »

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Dear Bernard,

as written by foto_z, it is not up to Sinar to state anything about Phase's possibility/willingness or readiness to jump onto the Hy6 wagon. It is Phase which has to clarify this question, if somebody.
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Dear Thierry,

Thanks for your kind answer. I hope that you didn't get me wrong. This isn't against you, I have always been a fan of yours on this forum.

I am not denying that Phase has certainly its share of reponsibilities in the current situation, but although it is definitely for the backs to adapt to the body, you'll have to agree with me that body makers can make it next to impossible to play with them if they so decide.

Today, an objective viewer like me cannot help looking at the situation and think that Sinar is preventing Phase from joining. Indeed, why would phase not want to join and add more potential buyers of their products? Phase supports basically every existing MF platform including the deceased Contax, why would they not want to support Hy6 is they could?

So if your policy is indeed to let them join the wagon providing some conditions are met, it might be better from a PR standpoint to clarify the conditions in general terms. That would at least help convince me about the openess of the platform.

Enough said.

Cheers,
Bernard

thsinar

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« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2007, 04:44:01 am »

Dear Bernard,

Sure, I did not take it personnaly.

I understand your concern(s). I hope this shall be clarified in the near future.

BTW: coming to Tokyo next October 08th.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Dear Thierry,

Thanks for your kind answer. I hope that you didn't get me wrong. This isn't against you, I have always been a fan of yours on this forum.

I am not denying that Phase has certainly its share of reponsibilities in the current situation, but although it is definitely for the backs to adapt to the body, you'll have to agree with me that body makers can make it next to impossible to play with them if they so decide.

Today, an objective viewer like me cannot help looking at the situation and think that Sinar is preventing Phase from joining. Indeed, why would phase not want to join and add more potential buyers of their products? Phase supports basically every existing MF platform including the deceased Contax, why would they not want to support Hy6 is they could?

So if your policy is indeed to let them join the wagon providing some conditions are met, it might be better from a PR standpoint to clarify the conditions in general terms. That would at least help convince me about the openess of the platform.

Enough said.

Cheers,
Bernard
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