New Leaf AFi Cameras

[thsinar]

"User-Friendly": easy to operate, understand or deal with = our definition (and most dictionaries).

Why trying to distort words or intentions?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

According to Sinars new(?) website they are an "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations", I iamgine user-friendly translates to those that have paid a license fee  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Thanks EPd!

Basically right.

Best regards,
Thierry

Bernard,

Despite the fact that you quote from my statement it seems you didn't really read it. I tried to explain the situation with Jenoptik, but you still seem to think that Sinar and Leaf are locking out any others. They have nothing to say about this (theoretically). It is up to Jenoptik to sell licenses and it is up to Phase to ask if they could join the party. So far there is no information available to me that Phase has shown any interest in joining the platform. Nor is there any information known to me that Jenoptik would be willing to make a deal with Phase. Those who do know probably keep their mouth shut wisely. Obviously nor Thierry or Yair are the ones to comment on this either.

Please re-read my statement and digest it slowly: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=140984

EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142086\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[josayeruk]

I've always been curious as to why I've never seen a discussion regarding "open" or "closed" digital backs. If you own a Leaf or Phase One back for Hasselblad "V" or "H" or Contax or Rollei etc. and you'd really love to use your back with a 28mm lens on an SLR body–why not buy the Mamiya 28mm lens and body (an "open system"), take off the digital back camera mount, mount a Mamiya 645 plate and switch back and forth with your existing system? It isn't the most convenient solution, but it's easily done by removing four screws and attaching a different camera mount. The back is part of an "open" system is it not?... or is it only cameras that are "open" or "closed"?

Of course, I'm trying to stir a little thoughtful debate as I realize that you (the user) can't switch Leaf or Phase from one 6x6 or 645 system to another by interchangeable camera adapters. Other digital backs will let you do that. More choice is a good thing, right?

So the question is... are some digital backs part of a "closed system" by limiting what cameras you can use them with, while other backs are "open systems" that let you switch camera makes and models as you desire? Just wondering if only cameras are considered "open or closed".

Please wait while I get my fire-retardant suit. It could get warm in here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142088\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi TT,

No need for a fire retardant suit.    

Personally, I cannot see that the Hy6/Sinar combo and the Leaf/AFi combo are any less closed than the H3D.

Economically you will be better off buying the respective packages from each company.  Who would buy a Hy6 body from Sinar and then try and buy a Leaf Afi back seperately?  Nobody!!

I don't even think Leaf offer the AFi back as a seperate item?  Prepared to be corrected if I am wrong.

Maybe in theory you could swap between the two platforms but economically this is always going to be prohibitive.

So in my opinion both systems are no more 'open' than an H3D.  Looking at the latest integrated deveopments from Hasselblad then I only look forward to more development in this line rather than worry about if I need to change platform.  Again the economic loss of changing all my lenses over would not bear thinking about!!  Eh!!

Jo S.x

PS  Can I borrow your flame suit now?  

[thsinar]

Good point and good question.

Thierry

I've always been curious as to why I've never seen a discussion regarding "open" or "closed" digital backs. If you own a Leaf or Phase One back for Hasselblad "V" or "H" or Contax or Rollei etc. and you'd really love to use your back with a 28mm lens on an SLR body–why not buy the Mamiya 28mm lens and body (an "open system"), take off the digital back camera mount, mount a Mamiya 645 plate and switch back and forth with your existing system? It isn't the most convenient solution, but it's easily done by removing four screws and attaching a different camera mount. The back is part of an "open" system is it not?... or is it only cameras that are "open" or "closed"?

Of course, I'm trying to stir a little thoughtful debate as I realize that you (the user) can't switch Leaf or Phase from one 6x6 or 645 system to another by interchangeable camera adapters. Other digital backs will let you do that. More choice is a good thing, right?

So the question is... are some digital backs part of a "closed system" by limiting what cameras you can use them with, while other backs are "open systems" that let you switch camera makes and models as you desire? Just wondering if only cameras are considered "open or closed".

Please wait while I get my fire-retardant suit. It could get warm in here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142088\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Before the question comes to me, here the answer:

Sinar offers the Hy6 separately, without back, and offers any back separately and without the need to buy a Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry

I don't even think Leaf offer the AFi back as a seperate item?  Prepared to be corrected if I am wrong.

Jo S.x

PS  Can I borrow your flame suit now?   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[TechTalk]

Good point and good question.

Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

To add fuel to the fire and clarify for those that are not aware of the differnces:

Sinar "open system" backs allow you to interchange the camera mount anytime you wish through a simple adapter plate system. This permits the back you buy to fit on nearly any camera body you wish at any time you choose and switch back and forth whenever you like. [a href=\"http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1780-50-1901.html]Link to Sinar Camera Adapters[/url]

Also Hasselblad/Imacon Ixpress and Hasselblad CF series backs permit the same thing... Link to Ixpress/CF Camera Adapters

Both brands also offer combination multi-shot/single-shot backs, making them "open" to even more options for the user.

On the other hand, "closed" digital backs (Leaf and Phase One) limit you to one 6x6 or 645 camera system. No "open" consumer-friendly options.

[Graham Mitchell]

On the other hand, "closed" digital backs (Leaf and Phase One) limit you to one 6x6 or 645 camera system. No "open" consumer-friendly options.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed, this is what attracted me to Sinar backs after assuming for years that I'd get a Phase One back when the time came. It took the worry out of choosing the wrong camera platform and therefore digital back mount, and also gives me the opportunity to add a Mamiya 645AFD plus 28mm lens to my kit if I so choose. I would just need to buy the Mamiya adapter plate, and I would be able to swap the back in just a few minutes.

[Photomangreg]

Can anyone tell me what the widest lens will be for the AfI or Hy6?  I love to shoot very wide angle and so far there is nothing wider, medium-format wise, then the Hassy 28mm, the Mamiya converts to a 31 when used with a DB.

[TechTalk]

Indeed, this is what attracted me to Sinar backs after assuming for years that I'd get a Phase One back when the time came. It took the worry out of choosing the wrong camera platform and therefore digital back mount, and also gives me the opportunity to add a Mamiya 645AFD plus 28mm lens to my kit if I so choose. I would just need to buy the Mamiya adapter plate, and I would be able to swap the back in just a few minutes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just noticed from your signature that you have a Rollei 6008AF and Sinar eMotion22. A great combination and very versatile.

The most open of both worlds–an open camera system and an "open" digital back!

Enjoy!

[Graham Mitchell]

Can anyone tell me what the widest lens will be for the AfI or Hy6?  I love to shoot very wide angle and so far there is nothing wider, medium-format wise, then the Hassy 28mm, the Mamiya converts to a 31 when used with a DB.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you considered something like a 6x9 camera with 24mm and 28mm lenses, with tilt and shift as an added bonus?

What do you mean by the Mamiya converts to a 31mm? A 28mm is a 28mm regardless of sensor/film size.

[Photomangreg]

What do you mean by the Mamiya converts to a 31mm? A 28mm is a 28mm regardless of sensor/film size.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, but there is a crop factor due to the sensor being smaller than film, you'll notice on Mamiyas website they have different angles of view for the lens when it's used with film vs. being used with a DB.

[TechTalk]

Can anyone tell me what the widest lens will be for the AfI or Hy6?  I love to shoot very wide angle and so far there is nothing wider, medium-format wise, then the Hassy 28mm, the Mamiya converts to a 31 when used with a DB.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

a 28mm is a 28mm. The H3D with 28mm or Mamiya with 28mm have the same field of view with the same size sensor.

The focal length remains the same, but you will have a slightly wider field of view with film.

[Graham Mitchell]

a 28mm is a 28mm. The H3D with 28mm or Mamiya with 28mm have the same field of view with the same size sensor.

The focal length remains the same, but you will have a slightly wider field of view with film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly

[thsinar]

the shortest lens available on the Hy6 will be a 35mm

FYI: a 28mm lens (as well as any other focal length), is and remains a 28mm for the 135 format, for the 6x4.5 format, for the 6x6, etc, .... as well as for a 48.0 x 36.0 mm sensor (33 MPx) or any other sensor size. The focal length DOES NEVER change, the effect achieved with the lens DOES.

Best regards,
Thierry

Can anyone tell me what the widest lens will be for the AfI or Hy6?  I love to shoot very wide angle and so far there is nothing wider, medium-format wise, then the Hassy 28mm, the Mamiya converts to a 31 when used with a DB.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[TechTalk]

Yes, but there is a crop factor due to the sensor being smaller than film, you'll notice on Mamiyas website they have different angles of view for the lens when it's used with film vs. being used with a DB.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A brief explanation... [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/dslr-mag.shtml]Link to Focal Length/Crop Factor[/url]

[Photomangreg]

the shortest lens available on the Hy6 will be a 35mm

FYI: a 28mm lens (as well as any other focal length), is and remains a 28mm for the 135 format, for the 6x4.5 format, for the 6x6, etc, .... as well as for a 48.0 x 36.0 mm sensor (33 MPx) or any other sensor size. The focal length DOES NEVER change, the effect achieved with the lens DOES.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the mamiya 28 will not give me as wide angle a view on a DB as the Hassy 28mm.

[Graham Mitchell]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the mamiya 28 will not give me as wide angle a view on a DB as the Hassy 28mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Please read the above posts again. I don't think you've quite grasped the relationship between focal length, sensor size and FOV.

The Mamiya and Hasselblad 28mm lenses will give the very same FOV when used with the same sensor size.

[thsinar]

wrong! a Hasselbld 28mm will give you EXACTLY the same "crop" as the Mamiya 28mm, as well as ANY other 28mm on a given film- or sensor format.

Best regards,
Thierry

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the mamiya 28 will not give me as wide angle a view on a DB as the Hassy 28mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Photomangreg]

Please read the above posts again. I don't think you've quite grasped the relationship between focal length, sensor size and FOV.

The Mamiya and Hasselblad 28mm lenses will give the very same FOV when used with the same sensor size.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Goto Mamiyas website, I'll make it easy and give you the link here  -  [a href=\"http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2284&id3=2285]http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2284&id3=2285[/url]  -  now scroll down and read the specs, notice how they change from film to Digital.

Any lens you use on any camera where the actual sensor size is smaller than the actual film size gives you a crop factor and makes the lens appear longer then it is.  It's like a Canon 1Ds MarkIII which has a full frame chip vs a 1D MarkIII which has a smaller chip and has a 1.3x Lens focal length conversion factor.  All of the Hasselblad HC lenses will also have this conversion factor when used with a DB, it happens to be 1.1x when used with a 22 or 39mp sensor.  The 28 is an HCD lens and is a true 28mm for digital coverage.

[Graham Mitchell]

Is this a joke? That site refers to FOV, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT focal length.

Now let's return this thread to the topic of Hy6/AFi cameras....please!