Z3100 - black and white printing

[damdeziner]

Hello,
I have been color printing on a roll of HP professional satin and really like the look and feel.
I will be printing a set of black and white studies on the same paper and I use Qimage to do all my resampling.
To be quite honest, I'm a little confused as to what method to use for a real neutral B&W print.
I've  been using the "application" to manage my prints through Q-image with color--but not sure regarding monochrome output if it is best to let the printer manage the print. A proven workflow description would be great.
Could someone shed some light on this topic for me--I would really appreciate some help on this.....Deadlines!!

Thanks very much,

Dave

[namartinnz]

i've been using Q Image to do my B&W mixed in with colour prints on my Z3100. Using application managed settings with custom profile using Epson Premium Luster. Never seen better B&W prints than from the Z3100. Never had a need to use its custom B&W printer settings

Neal

[Charles Gast]

i've been using Q Image to do my B&W mixed in with colour prints on my Z3100. Using application managed settings with custom profile using Epson Premium Luster. Never seen better B&W prints than from the Z3100. Never had a need to use its custom B&W printer settings

Neal
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139718\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I use the printer managed black and white. For one thing if you want the advantage of four blacks (pk+mk+gry+lightgry) you must use the printers black and white function on matte type paper.

[Geoff Wittig]

Hello,
I have been color printing on a roll of HP professional satin and really like the look and feel.
I will be printing a set of black and white studies on the same paper and I use Qimage to do all my resampling.
To be quite honest, I'm a little confused as to what method to use for a real neutral B&W print.
I've  been using the "application" to manage my prints through Q-image with color--but not sure regarding monochrome output if it is best to let the printer manage the print. A proven workflow description would be great.
Could someone shed some light on this topic for me--I would really appreciate some help on this.....Deadlines!!

Thanks very much,

Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've done a bunch of B&W printing on HP's professional satin using both a profile generated by the onboard spectro, and printer managed color, and I'm delighted with the results either way. I've settled on printer-managed color and use the advanced BW driver settings to apply just a skosh of warmth to the shadows and a bit of coolness to the highlights. Works great with my images. Not sure how much this will help, as I print straight from Photoshop rather than using Qimage.

[neil snape]

I use the printer managed black and white. For one thing if you want the advantage of four blacks (pk+mk+gry+lightgry) you must use the printers black and white function on matte type paper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes you have to. B&W is not ICC color managed. It does consider the calibrations however, (or at least it did before).
The advantage of Qimage would be the uprezzing before handing off to the driver ,yet the image can still be handled as a printer managed rgb image and separated for B&W linear curves in the driver stream.

[damdeziner]

The advantage of Qimage would be the uprezzing before handing off to the driver ,yet the image can still be handled as a printer managed rgb image and separated for B&W linear curves in the driver stream.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't see much difference between the advanced B/W and print as grayscale. Regarding workflow for B/W, is there a particular habit I would be wise to excercise?

Thank you.

[neil snape]

I didn't see much difference between the advanced B/W and print as grayscale. Regarding workflow for B/W, is there a particular habit I would be wise to excercise?

Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139959\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Advanced B&W is only there to add color composites into the B&W underlying base. The workflow in any case must be Printer Managed Color. ICC or Application CM will not work.

[thierryd]

The workflow in any case must be Printer Managed Color. ICC or Application CM will not work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm very happy with a workflow in Application Managed Color.

I'm using CSIII. With a raw file I use the grayscale mix from ACR to make a good color to BW conversion. I open the file in Photoshop in ProPhoto RGB 16 bits.  
Without CSIII, I keep the file native color space. I open a new adjustment layer "color balance", then a new ajustment layer "Hue Saturation". On the "Hue Saturation" saturation=-100. Then I play with "color balance" until I'm happy with the black and white on screen.
I save the file.
I open Qimage and I print as if it was a color file (and in fact it's a bw image in a color file):
In Qimage job properties, I choose the printer icc from the paper I'm using,
In the HP driver the right paper type, choose color printing and Application Managed Color.
And my black and white are neutral. (I'm not looking for color composites into the B&W underlying base.)
So print in color if you are looking for a true BW and in BW if you want color composites into the B&W underlying base...  

[neil snape]

If you use ICC CM without passing off the data as Printer CM , the contrast will be higher but you'll loose graduation and tone curves direct to the print heads that are only possible with driver level B&W. When you add colour into the B&W you are adding tone with a fairly simple curve but not applying any ICC colour management there either.
Since r=g=b with the HP driver the workflow you use Thierry will be neutral so long as the profiles are created with either APS or the HP Easy profiles. They should be free of anything other than grey inks which is very pleasing esthetically, and guarantee the highest in light fade resistance.
But do try a side by side between ICC B&W and printer CM B&W. There is a useful difference which you can use when you think the image is better one way or the other.

[thierryd]

I use the printer managed black and white. For one thing if you want the advantage of four blacks (pk+mk+gry+lightgry) you must use the printers black and white function on matte type paper.

Charles and Neil you agree apparently on this point. But if I believe in the HP Technical Newsletter "working with non HP Papers"  Fine Art Paper > 250 g/m2 is using the 4 blacks.
 
So Is it true only with the black and white mode and the Fine Art Paper > 250g/m2, or is it true with all the Fine Art Paper and the black and white mode but only with the Fine Art Paper > 250g/m2  in color mode  ?

[Ernst Dinkla]

Charles and Neil you agree apparently on this point. But if I believe in the HP Technical Newsletter "working with non HP Papers"  Fine Art Paper > 250 g/m2 is using the 4 blacks.
 
So Is it true only with the black and white mode and the Fine Art Paper > 250g/m2, or is it true with all the Fine Art Paper and the black and white mode but only with the Fine Art Paper > 250g/m2  in color mode  ?
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Quad in both modes in my opinion.  I had the same question mark appear in my head when I saw the discussion. I would be surprised if they have two media profiles running within one script. The Dmax of the Fine Art Paper >250g/ms mode is also higher than the Matte Litho-Realistic on PhotoRag. 60 ink limit versus 42.

Ernst Dinkla

[Ernst Dinkla]

If you use ICC CM without passing off the data as Printer CM , the contrast will be higher but you'll loose graduation and tone curves direct to the print heads that are only possible with driver level B&W. When you add colour into the B&W you are adding tone with a fairly simple curve but not applying any ICC colour management there either.
Since r=g=b with the HP driver the workflow you use Thierry will be neutral so long as the profiles are created with either APS or the HP Easy profiles. They should be free of anything other than grey inks which is very pleasing esthetically, and guarantee the highest in light fade resistance.
But do try a side by side between ICC B&W and printer CM B&W. There is a useful difference which you can use when you think the image is better one way or the other.
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Neil,

we have discussed this before, the subject slightly different. You thought the HP B&W mode with CM off is good on the neutral setting but you also mentioned that no tone range compensation is given on the color ink additions in B&W mode. I tried to get the neutral B&W range correct with a custom made QTR profile in Qimage but that didn't work due to problems with Qimage's CM. I returned to your (HP) method but if I measure greyscale stepscales I see a near linear output on the neutral setting and not the perceptual (Lab) curve that QTR or a color profile would create. It works but I'm not totally satisfied.
It actually was one of the first questions that I asked our Flemish HP color expert on the Photokina presentation of the Z3100: "is the B&W mode perceptually correct with and without color addition and is there some internal profiling done" ? The other one was whether calibration is also the fundament under the B&W mode. He was aware of the existance of QTR. The answer I got was that it was good. Something I can not deny but being the anal type and with the good results Epson 9000 custom quad + QTR, I like to get something like that running again.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]

[neil snape]

Yes Ernst, I know it would be nice to have that side opened up for adjusting the 3 or 4 channel TRC.
The curves are built in, and non user adjustable. The are not linear and have power curves in them to make a pleasing B&W, not an accurate or linear one.