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Author Topic: InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper  (Read 10946 times)

geossl

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« on: September 11, 2007, 09:22:21 am »

Dear All,
  In terms of quality, InkJet printed is better than Fuji frontier printing? or vice versa?

  Thanks.
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rdonson

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 09:28:47 am »

That's quite a broad question.  Its not likely you'll get much of an answer without providing some info on intended use.  

For example, if you're looking for fine art prints to hang in a gallery its unlikely anyone would recommend a Fuji Frontier.  However, if you're looking to knock out dozens or hundreds of images for youth sports or family photos you might find the Fuji Frontier does a wonderful job.
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jjlphoto

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 11:13:08 am »

Quality is such a subjective term. Fuji Frontier is basically a DurstLambda/Light Jet type of output on real photo paper run through chemistry. Is that better than inkjet? What type of inkjet? What paper & ink? Fuji Frontier is certainly better than a bottom end inkjet with generic office store paper, but what about high end inkjet on acid free paper? Too many variable to compare.
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smthopr

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 12:02:03 pm »

Quote
Dear All,
  In terms of quality, InkJet printed is better than Fuji frontier printing? or vice versa?

  Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Assuming the inkjet is printed on a similar looking paper to the Frontier---for many images, they look pretty much the same. I'll give a fade resistance advantage to a a pigment inkjet print though.

On the other hand, there are some colors that simply don't print well mixing ink dots. I'm thinking a few years back, I had a photograph accepted at a gallery show via digital file audition. I then needed a print for the show and found that I could not get a decent inkjet print of the image because there were too many dark reddish colors out of the printer's gamut. Reds would get darker, darker, darker, then darker cyan mush. Very ugly, especially on portraits with deep shadows on important parts of a face. I had a lighjet print made, and it looked spectacular. And...the print sold for $600, woo hoo!

Epilogue:  I now have an Epson 3800 inkjet, and it prints much much better in the darker reds and greens than earlier inkjets. I've been able to make an acceptable inkjet print of the image noted above, but I suspect it does not have quite the richness in the darker tones as the lightjet print, but it's really close.

And lastly, inkjet printers can print on fine art matte papers for a look and feel that you'll never get from a lab print, but it will not be as "colorful" and "vibrant" as a glossy print.

Hope this helps.

-bruce
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Hank

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 12:13:40 pm »

If durability is one of your quality criteria, Fuji Frontier wins hands down.  Inkjet prints scratch way too easily for us to even consider in our portrait studio because especially 11x14 and smaller prints are usually not covered when displayed by our clients.  We tried inkjets briefly, but spent way too much time and money replacing scratched prints.  In contrast, the Fuji are pretty much bombproof when not covered.  If the prints are to be displayed under glass or some such, then inkjets are fine.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 12:14:29 pm by Hank »
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Ernst Dinkla

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 04:09:51 pm »

Quote
Assuming the inkjet is printed on a similar looking paper to the Frontier---for many images, they look pretty much the same. I'll give a fade resistance advantage to a a pigment inkjet print though.

On the other hand, there are some colors that simply don't print well mixing ink dots. I'm thinking a few years back, I had a photograph accepted at a gallery show via digital file audition. I then needed a print for the show and found that I could not get a decent inkjet print of the image because there were too many dark reddish colors out of the printer's gamut. Reds would get darker, darker, darker, then darker cyan mush. Very ugly, especially on portraits with deep shadows on important parts of a face. I had a lighjet print made, and it looked spectacular. And...the print sold for $600, woo hoo!

Epilogue:  I now have an Epson 3800 inkjet, and it prints much much better in the darker reds and greens than earlier inkjets. I've been able to make an acceptable inkjet print of the image noted above, but I suspect it does not have quite the richness in the darker tones as the lightjet print, but it's really close.

And lastly, inkjet printers can print on fine art matte papers for a look and feel that you'll never get from a lab print, but it will not be as "colorful" and "vibrant" as a glossy print.

Hope this helps.

-bruce
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On color Joseph Holmes has the Lightjet Fuji matt profile versus the Epson 11880 Luster profile on this page:

[a href=\"http://www.josephholmes.com/news-epson11880.html]http://www.josephholmes.com/news-epson11880.html[/url]

On scratch resistance etc, I think there's been constant development in the last years and the RC photo prints from an HP Z3100 are tough in my experience. Yesterday I had to make a prototype of a cube that can be folded inside<>outside and I used the PremiumIDsatin 260 grams paper to print the lay-out of it and made a sandwich back to back and folded the result. I didn't expect the surface would keep so well.


Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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millsart

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 08:42:41 pm »

Quote
Assuming the inkjet is printed on a similar looking paper to the Frontier---for many images, they look pretty much the same. I'll give a fade resistance advantage to a a pigment inkjet print though.

On the other hand, there are some colors that simply don't print well mixing ink dots. I'm thinking a few years back, I had a photograph accepted at a gallery show via digital file audition. I then needed a print for the show and found that I could not get a decent inkjet print of the image because there were too many dark reddish colors out of the printer's gamut. Reds would get darker, darker, darker, then darker cyan mush. Very ugly, especially on portraits with deep shadows on important parts of a face. I had a lighjet print made, and it looked spectacular. And...the print sold for $600, woo hoo!


Thats very intresting as its quite at odds with my experiences with Frontier machines.  I find the color gamut of of inkjets to be far wider, especially in the deep and bold reds using an inkjet.

Dye ink machines such as the Canon i9900 in particular can get a bright red that when done on a Frontier does not even come close.   Its not that the lab prints look bad, they just don't have as wide of gamut in my experience.

Current pigment printers still don't get quite the range of the best dye models though its rather close (and yes there are exceptions where they can exceed dyes in some cases)  and all that I've printed on have given me a wider gamut than any Frontier or Durst machine.

The one area where I do however feel the lab prints still are superior is in terms of deep blacks on glossy paper.   Inkjets are my preference for luster and obviously matte/fine art papers, but its still hard to top a chemical glossy print if thats what your looking for.    No issues with gloss differential or scuffing.   Pure blacks and no issues with the papers surface texture having flaws.
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smthopr

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 01:55:26 am »

Quote
Thats very intresting as its quite at odds with my experiences with Frontier machines.  I find the color gamut of of inkjets to be far wider, especially in the deep and bold reds using an inkjet.

Current pigment printers still don't get quite the range of the best dye models though its rather close (and yes there are exceptions where they can exceed dyes in some cases)  and all that I've printed on have given me a wider gamut than any Frontier or Durst machine.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was refering to dull/dark reds and greens, not bright saturated colors in my post. Hope this clarifies it.

-bruce
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Wayne Fox

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 02:25:11 pm »

I have a couple of rather odd viewpoints, and too much time to kill today.  

When comparing chemical silver prints to inkjet there are many factors to consider, and several good points have been made.

Cost of material for chemcial prints is fractional to that of inkjet, but equipment costs of inkjet is fractional to that of those that produce chemical prints.  Workflow for a large operation dealing with many files from a large variety of photographers is probably better using chemical processes vs. inkjet for a couple of reasons.  First, the workflow is very similar to traditional photographic workflow, which was very efficient.  Lab software systems such as Kodak's DP2 allow thousands of files to be inspected, tweaked and sent to production equipment by a single operater in a day, similar to video analyzing of days gone by.  Throughput of chemical printers far exceeds inkjet, which adds to overall plant efficiency. Material cost of these prints for a large operation is less than 0.20 per 8x10, so margins at these volumes and this efficiency is pretty good.

The quality question is intriguing, since quality is quite sujbective.  The fact is chemical prints can be very very good, and in many cases the "extra" quality of an inkjet print just will not be worth the additional cost.  It can be challenging to develop the skill to produce really outstanding inkjet prints despite good equipment ... a facilty highly skilled in printing chemical prints may produce a better product than someone who isn't really that good printing on their Epson 9800 or Canon ipf6000.

As far as gamut,  to compare a lightjet/Fuji paper gamut to an Epson on Lustre paper is somewhat fair since the two surfaces and the look of the two will be very similar.  However, it seems most "fine-art" prints now are being produced on matte based papers, and if you compare those gamuts, you will find far less difference, and indeed will probably find that the Lightjet exceeds the gamut of the inkjet in some areas, especially in darker colors and dMax, while the inkjet wins in the lighter colors, especially yellows and reds.  So deciding an inkjet is better based on a gamut you probably won't be using anyway is a little unfair.  The fact is both have a very acceptable gamut, and even side by side in most cases you won't see the inkjet "blowing away" the lightjet print.

As far as longevity, another interesting discussion.  The chemical print is a little more durable physcially, the inkjet may fade slower (I'm still a little concerned that the inks themselves are fine, but the papers just may not be as archival as the inks - no one seems to test that very well).    What are the chances that either print will live long enough to die from fading?  While it may be true that an inkjet may take 150 to 200 years to fade vs a chemical print taking maybe 80-100 years to fade, what are the odds that either print will actually survive even 80-100 years?  Not very good odds.  Obviously those from photgraphers that achieve that "elite" status and are collected, but while many photographers attempt to postion themselves in that realm, very few of them will actually be considered such 100 years from now.  So without that special "collectors" care, the odds are most photographs will die from something other than fading.  There is just too many things that can happen over the course of a century or so.
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Ernst Dinkla

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 03:46:29 am »

Quote
I have a couple of rather odd viewpoints, and too much time to kill today. 

When comparing chemical silver prints to inkjet there are many factors to consider, and several good points have been made.

Cost of material for chemcial prints is fractional to that of inkjet, but equipment costs of inkjet is fractional to that of those that produce chemical prints.  Workflow for a large operation dealing with many files from a large variety of photographers is probably better using chemical processes vs. inkjet for a couple of reasons.  First, the workflow is very similar to traditional photographic workflow, which was very efficient.  Lab software systems such as Kodak's DP2 allow thousands of files to be inspected, tweaked and sent to production equipment by a single operater in a day, similar to video analyzing of days gone by.  Throughput of chemical printers far exceeds inkjet, which adds to overall plant efficiency. Material cost of these prints for a large operation is less than 0.20 per 8x10, so margins at these volumes and this efficiency is pretty good.

The quality question is intriguing, since quality is quite sujbective.  The fact is chemical prints can be very very good, and in many cases the "extra" quality of an inkjet print just will not be worth the additional cost.  It can be challenging to develop the skill to produce really outstanding inkjet prints despite good equipment ... a facilty highly skilled in printing chemical prints may produce a better product than someone who isn't really that good printing on their Epson 9800 or Canon ipf6000.

As far as gamut,  to compare a lightjet/Fuji paper gamut to an Epson on Lustre paper is somewhat fair since the two surfaces and the look of the two will be very similar.  However, it seems most "fine-art" prints now are being produced on matte based papers, and if you compare those gamuts, you will find far less difference, and indeed will probably find that the Lightjet exceeds the gamut of the inkjet in some areas, especially in darker colors and dMax, while the inkjet wins in the lighter colors, especially yellows and reds.  So deciding an inkjet is better based on a gamut you probably won't be using anyway is a little unfair.  The fact is both have a very acceptable gamut, and even side by side in most cases you won't see the inkjet "blowing away" the lightjet print.

As far as longevity, another interesting discussion.  The chemical print is a little more durable physcially, the inkjet may fade slower (I'm still a little concerned that the inks themselves are fine, but the papers just may not be as archival as the inks - no one seems to test that very well).    What are the chances that either print will live long enough to die from fading?  While it may be true that an inkjet may take 150 to 200 years to fade vs a chemical print taking maybe 80-100 years to fade, what are the odds that either print will actually survive even 80-100 years?  Not very good odds.  Obviously those from photgraphers that achieve that "elite" status and are collected, but while many photographers attempt to postion themselves in that realm, very few of them will actually be considered such 100 years from now.  So without that special "collectors" care, the odds are most photographs will die from something other than fading.  There is just too many things that can happen over the course of a century or so.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is a bit odd for several reasons. First I think the thread starter must be interested in gloss, satin, RC quality prints otherwise he wouldn't have raised the question in the first place, the Frontier isn't producing matte art prints on papers similar to Hahnemuhle. So comparing gloss- satin output is legitimate, on topic and realistic.

If the wider perspective has to be included: the inkjet machine will run a wide variety of media and the new models also switch fast between matt and gloss can not be ignored either. The same for sizes possible. Costs are a relative factor, if that Frontier isn't used continuously the print price will be of a different order.

There's no question that chemical prints in the smaller sizes are way cheaper than inkjet prints if that machine is used continuously. Quality can be good too if the shop uses Fuji's Crystal paper, 35 years or something like that, half to 1/5 of inkjet print life, Wilhelm's numbers. Whether one foresees an exhibition in year 2150 of your original prints or you just want to deliver the customer the best tested so far or there's a new puppy that's so cute it has to be photographed, it is all relative.

I think the original question was from a customer's perspective and not one who thinks about running a lab. I could be wrong of course.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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millsart

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InkJet printing vs Fuji frontier paper
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 11:24:15 am »

I was certainly under the impression as well that the OP was asking from the viewpoint of a consumer, specifically one who was perhaps thinking of buying a home inkjet machine verses continuing to send his work to the lab.

I think that typically everyone has some experience and is familar with what to expect from Frontier or similar machines.   Inkjets are the are area where people are not sure what to expect, either because they've never owned one, or if they did, it was many years ago and the quality level has certainly changed or perhaps their idea of a "photo printer" was a 3 in 1 bought at a big box retail store that not only can send a fax but also can print "photo quality" as per the marketing depts ideas of what that means  

Without the OP returning to this thread to actually clear up the specifics of what exactly he/she was asking though its really all rather academic.
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