Success "Re-Profiling" Z3100 (longer wait times)

[Mark Lindquist]

I thought it best to start a new thread about this issue of "Re-Profiling" (Printing, then reading at later date)

I have been interested in printing the target then allowing the print to dry for a longer time such as hours or days, then reloading the print to complete the scan to create the profile.

Thanks for the help on the previous thread.

So it turns out the way to do it is pretty simple, it just requires patience and futzing.

1.  First I printed the target, trimmed the print using a "razor-in-the-slot technique" then I let it sit for about 3-4 hours.

2.  Next, I reloaded the print as a sheet.  This required some patience and screwing around mainly as the canvas is a bit unwieldy and it was a "short-sheet".  Perseverance and following the on-screen loading prompts finally got me there, and the sheet was loaded.  Note: that I chose "Load Sheet" and chose the custom paper that I used to make the profile.

3.  Once the sheet was successfully loaded, I went back into the profile utility in the color center and chose "create and install ICC profile" then selected the action: "scan ICC profiling chart and create ICC profile", un-checking "print ICC profiling chart".

4.  The process started, but it took maybe 5 minutes for the photospectrometer to warm up or prepare.  Once it did, it went ahead and created the profile.


So ultimately it is possible to print the profile and wait, then reload and and continue with the process.  I assume it would be much easier to just print the profile on the roll, then unload the roll and wait for the desired amount of time, then reload the roll to then read the chart and profile.
The key is to reload the paper first before attempting to do anything further.

So hurray - it works - just a little slow and a little picky, but really sweet.

This post is for those who are befuddled about this technique - and thanks to everyone for the suggestions, advice.

Mark

[Harry Carpenter]

What paper type did you load the breathing colour canvas as initially.
Having had nightmare with colour gamut from initially selecting the "wrong " paper type as the basis for profiling my Kodak lustre paper I want to get it nailed first time when I get some of their canvas.
Thanks and glad you got it sorted. This is another case where the instructions are a bit on the thin side.

[Mark Lindquist]

What paper type did you load the breathing colour canvas as initially.
Having had nightmare with colour gamut from initially selecting the "wrong " paper type as the basis for profiling my Kodak lustre paper I want to get it nailed first time when I get some of their canvas.
Thanks and glad you got it sorted. This is another case where the instructions are a bit on the thin side.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Harry -

I just made a custom paper using Fine Art > Canvas.  I made a single profile letting it go automatically, then I made another one reusing the same printed target that had sat for several hours.  As I suspected would be the case, the second profile is definitely snappier than the first.

I figure it this way, that fooling around making profiles "right now", with this unbelievable printer is really an amazing luxury compared to sending printed targets off and paying big bucks and then having to wait.  I plan to make several more profiles on this canvas media with different settings mainly because in the long run doing the testing works out to still be way cheaper than buying custom profiles.  I think you hit it on the head that choosing the right type of paper is critical.  But experimenting is a really good idea, I think, keeping an open mind about it all, and carefully, methodically testing to get it all right, or even better based on the alchemy of the experiment and even the happy accident.

I am thrilled with the color and depth on Breathing color - it just knocks my socks off.

Just a few prints into the process and I'm getting better than anything I've seen from these images.  Reds-- oooh yeah - no problem.

I'm pretty happy so far.  But yes, I agree, a few areas of instructions could be better defined, particularly when the techs and support people don't even get it yet.

Mark

[casterle]

I figure it this way, that fooling around making profiles "right now", with this unbelievable printer is really an amazing luxury compared to sending printed targets off and paying big bucks and then having to wait.

I haven't tried this yet, but my Breathing Color sales rep (Stephen Warth) told me that they'll make profiles at no charge. They send you a tiff image to print (the RGB 1728 Eye-One Target by Bill Atkinson), you print it and send (mail) it back to them, they make the profile and send it to you.

I'm still very new to the Z3100 and large format printing in general, so I don't know how this profile would compare to one made with the printer, or the HP APS system.

[Mark Lindquist]

I haven't tried this yet, but my Breathing Color sales rep (Stephen Warth) told me that they'll make profiles at no charge. They send you a tiff image to print (the RGB 1728 Eye-One Target by Bill Atkinson), you print it and send (mail) it back to them, they make the profile and send it to you.

I'm still very new to the Z3100 and large format printing in general, so I don't know how this profile would compare to one made with the printer, or the HP APS system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's interesting.  I'd like to try the profile they make and compare it to the ones I'm making on the Z3100.  It may in fact be a better profile due to the larger target and presumably more sophisticated profiling device, but looking at what I'm getting, I can't imagine it would be all that much better given that it's matching my monitor output so closely right now.  Still, in all, I would be interested.

Do you have an email to send to to request the target and the service?

Thanks-

Mark

[casterle]

Do you have an email to send to to request the target and the service?

I'm sure Stephen could send you the target and fill you in on the details:

stephen@breathingcolor.com

[Mark Lindquist]

I'm sure Stephen could send you the target and fill you in on the details:

stephen@breathingcolor.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks - I'll contact him - appreciate the tip -

Mark

[robertDthomas]

Thanks - I'll contact him - appreciate the tip -

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

BTW Mark when you made your profile did you do with APS or standard profile with Z3100?

[Mark Lindquist]

BTW Mark when you made your profile did you do with APS or standard profile with Z3100?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Standard Z3100.  I don't have the APS, although I have thought about it in the past.
I've been really surprised how well the  Z3100 profiles.  
Doing big prints on Chromata White, the colors are amazing.  
No problems with the reds.

[robertDthomas]

Standard Z3100.  I don't have the APS, although I have thought about it in the past.
I've been really surprised how well the  Z3100 profiles. 
Doing big prints on Chromata White, the colors are amazing. 
No problems with the reds.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

MArk,

THanks for the reply.  I just got the APS and have not used yet.  I was dissapointed with a standard profile I did with Epson Enhanced Matte (or whatever they call it now) as I have used this a lot for proofing as it is inexpensive.  I will have to get soe of the breathing color and try it.

[Mark Lindquist]

MArk,

THanks for the reply.  I just got the APS and have not used yet.  I was dissapointed with a standard profile I did with Epson Enhanced Matte (or whatever they call it now) as I have used this a lot for proofing as it is inexpensive.  I will have to get soe of the breathing color and try it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139162\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've used Enhanced Matte as a proofing paper in the past and still do on my 4800 Pro, knowing if it looks good on the EM it will surely look good on just about anything else    (this holds true, for the most part, with Epson printers).  Enhanced Matte is really not that great a paper IMO (YYMV), but like you say it's cheap, etc.

I'm looking into a relatively inexpensive HP or Hannemuhl paper for future proofing on the Z3100.

Let me know how your APS works out.  I'd go for one myself, but I have an Eye-One Match system already and I'm pleased with the monitor profiling and the color output of the Z3100.  I guess the APS would improve things somewhat, but I'd like to fully understand and master what I have with the plain vanilla Z3100 first.

I wonder if you have tried making any comparison/ testing profiles for the Enhanced Matte on the Z3100?  I think choosing a different paper type that is more closely realted, (or maybe not?) might make a difference.  Choosing the right paper family/type for profiling seems to be the tricky business of getting the right output.

Mark

[rdonson]

I've used Enhanced Matte as a proofing paper in the past and still do on my 4800 Pro, knowing if it looks good on the EM it will surely look good on just about anything else    (this holds true, for the most part, with Epson printers).  Enhanced Matte is really not that great a paper IMO (YYMV), but like you say it's cheap, etc.

I'm looking into a relatively inexpensive HP or Hannemuhl paper for future proofing on the Z3100.

Let me know how your APS works out.  I'd go for one myself, but I have an Eye-One Match system already and I'm pleased with the monitor profiling and the color output of the Z3100.  I guess the APS would improve things somewhat, but I'd like to fully understand and master what I have with the plain vanilla Z3100 first.

I wonder if you have tried making any comparison/ testing profiles for the Enhanced Matte on the Z3100?  I think choosing a different paper type that is more closely realted, (or maybe not?) might make a difference.  Choosing the right paper family/type for profiling seems to be the tricky business of getting the right output.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139202\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have APS 1.3 and I use Epson Enhanced matte.   I did see a difference in softproofing and final prints between profiles created from the Easy targets and the TC9.18 targets.  

Selecting the right paper type for creating a profile can make a HUGE difference.  I does for EEM.  If you're using non-HP paper and someone hasn't shared the secrets of which paper type works best you're in for some experimentation.

[Mark Lindquist]

I have APS 1.3 and I use Epson Enhanced matte.   I did see a difference in softproofing and final prints between profiles created from the Easy targets and the TC9.18 targets. 

Selecting the right paper type for creating a profile can make a HUGE difference.  I does for EEM.  If you're using non-HP paper and someone hasn't shared the secrets of which paper type works best you're in for some experimentation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ron -

Interesting.  So what about other profiles for other papers - do you see a big difference between the plain Z3100 photospectrometer and the APS?  I'd be interested knowing how significant the difference is.  Also, in terms of learning those secrets about what paper types are the right types, it would be helpful to know.  I was thinking a community library might be a cool thing.  HP actually suggests "we share profiles with friends".

M

[rdonson]

Hi Mark,

I've been out of town until recently and super busy lately so I haven't done a lot with the APS and TC9.18 targets.  I do plan on doing more work in this area soon.

On many papers the stock HP profiles are pretty good and sometimes better than the Easy profiles you can create with the base Z3100 package.

I've only had time to create APS TC9.18 profiles for two papers so far, the Epson Enhanced Matte paper and HP's Premium Instant-Dry Photo Satin.  In both cases I think I get better results from the TC9.18 APS profiles although its much less noticeable on the satin.

Yes, understanding the paper types is very important and keeping the info learned is a valuable aid.  Sean Puckett created an HP z3100 Wiki for info sharing and I've been putting information there as fast as I can.  I do plan on making APS profiles available there soon.  I hope more people begin to contribute info to the wiki as well.

[Mark Lindquist]

Hi Mark,

I've been out of town until recently and super busy lately so I haven't done a lot with the APS and TC9.18 targets.  I do plan on doing more work in this area soon.

On many papers the stock HP profiles are pretty good and sometimes better than the Easy profiles you can create with the base Z3100 package.

I've only had time to create APS TC9.18 profiles for two papers so far, the Epson Enhanced Matte paper and HP's Premium Instant-Dry Photo Satin.  In both cases I think I get better results from the TC9.18 APS profiles although its much less noticeable on the satin.

Yes, understanding the paper types is very important and keeping the info learned is a valuable aid.  Sean Puckett created an HP z3100 Wiki for info sharing and I've been putting information there as fast as I can.  I do plan on making APS profiles available there soon.  I hope more people begin to contribute info to the wiki as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Ron -

I've seen the Wiki and it looks great.  A knowledge base regarding paper types would be super there, but also I was thinking actual shared profiles.  Being able to access APS profiles would be incredible.  Although of course then it defeats the purpose of having a closed loop profile...

Out of curiosity, what paper type did you use for the Enhanced Matte that you've already profiled?

I hope more people will contribute to the Wiki too - that would be cool.

Thanks-

Mark

[rdonson]

Hi Ron -

I've seen the Wiki and it looks great.  A knowledge base regarding paper types would be super there, but also I was thinking actual shared profiles.  Being able to access APS profiles would be incredible.  Although of course then it defeats the purpose of having a closed loop profile...

Out of curiosity, what paper type did you use for the Enhanced Matte that you've already profiled?

I hope more people will contribute to the Wiki too - that would be cool.

Thanks-

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139316\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I'm planning on sharing APS profiles I create on the wiki.  I created the page and the next step is to create the table and start attaching profiles.  I may be able to start that sometime on Sunday.  Given that Z3100s have the built-in calibration capability I expect the profiles to work quite well across machines.  Initial reports are very promising on this.

For my first APS Epson Enhanced Matte profile I used "Photo Matte Paper" as the paper type.  The only disappointment was that the reds weren't where they should be.  The next profile I create for EEM will be using the "HP Matte Litho-Realistic" paper type.  Others have suggested this significantly improves the reds.  I may also try the "Fine Art" paper type as its parameters look pretty much the same as the Litho-Realistic.

[Mussi_Spectraflow]

FYI,
   For Epson Enhanced Matte I think I've gotten the best results from the Matte litho, or the Fine Art>250. You can also try the setting. The first two should put the reds in the right place, although I think you will find a bit of a trade off between gamut and shadow detail. Also the APS is using a sort of Profile Maker V6 engine, and it seems there are still some issues left over from V5. Shadow detail is quite good out of the APS, but I prefer Monaco for it's rendering of Blues. You might also consider using the actual HP Super HW Plus paper, the white point is a bit duller and bluer compared to the Enhanced matte, but the cost is a bit less and for proofing it should work just fine. If you factor in the differences in the white points the gamut of the two papers are very close, with the HP paper showing less mottling...Plus you can use the actual HP printer setting. There's also the Matte Litho paper which I really like.

Julian Mussi
Spectraflow

[Mussi_Spectraflow]

...I forgot I wanted to comment on the original topic. Hours or Days of dry time for the Z3100 inkset should not be needed. Canvas is an odd material and I admit that I haven't done any dry down testing on that specifically. However on all photographic media, there is less then 1 DE shift after only a few minutes. Yes this is a reiteration of the HP tech specs, but I ran the tests and can confirm. For Fine Art media, specifically 3rd party papers that may be overinked, they may need 15 min at the most before they are stable. I recall that one of the changes to the new firmware/driver would be the ability to set dry times when profiling, so you won't have to remove the prints.
      Back in the day, when making profiles for Dye Based inks there was a huge color shift over 5min, 60min, and 24hrs. I would expect a slight shift between prints directly from the printer and 10-15min, but after that the results should be very subtle. If you noticed a drastic change in the output of the profiles I would suspect that there was some other factor involved?

Julian Mussi

[Mark Lindquist]

...I forgot I wanted to comment on the original topic. Hours or Days of dry time for the Z3100 inkset should not be needed. Canvas is an odd material and I admit that I haven't done any dry down testing on that specifically. However on all photographic media, there is less then 1 DE shift after only a few minutes. Yes this is a reiteration of the HP tech specs, but I ran the tests and can confirm. For Fine Art media, specifically 3rd party papers that may be overinked, they may need 15 min at the most before they are stable. I recall that one of the changes to the new firmware/driver would be the ability to set dry times when profiling, so you won't have to remove the prints.
      Back in the day, when making profiles for Dye Based inks there was a huge color shift over 5min, 60min, and 24hrs. I would expect a slight shift between prints directly from the printer and 10-15min, but after that the results should be very subtle. If you noticed a drastic change in the output of the profiles I would suspect that there was some other factor involved?

Julian Mussi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Julian -
Thanks for your comments and info.  I agree about the profiles not requiring greater drying times.  I'm continuing my testing with significant drying times, but it looks like the profiler nails it first go around.  And... of course, that's a very good thing.  My initial concerns stemmed from a past issue that thankfully is now resolved.

In many ways, the only reason to use Epson Enhanced Matte is to be able to use paper that's on hand and lots of it.  I have a lot that I use on my 4800.  I'll look into your recommendations of  
the Matte Litho and the HP Super HW Plus paper.  Good info - thanks -

Mark