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Author Topic: Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?  (Read 8224 times)

Photolandscape

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« on: September 06, 2007, 06:05:38 pm »

I have owned an Epson 4000 with Imageprint v6 for about 1.5 years. In some ways, it is a great printer. But after spending countless hours and over $1000 just on profiling the 4000, I am still not able to get as satisfactory a match as I was able to get between my monitor and my previous printer, the Epson 2200. I have grown very frustrated and want to make a change.

Money is tight these days, with a son about to go off to college. But I noticed recently that the Canon iPF-5000, whjich received rave reviews initially, has become a bargain. They can be had for as little as $850-$900.

So, I'd like to hear from anyone with direct experience with either or both of these machines as to the wisdom of possibly selling my Epson and replacing it with the Canon. Would ColorBurst or ColorByte RIP really be needed with the Canon (I found that it made my Epson considerably more consistent). Is the Canon easy to profile, and can I expect to get consistent results between my monitor and the printer once calibrated?

As you can see, I have been living with varying degrees of color management hell for the past couple of years, and want to see if there is some relatively economical way to get better, more consistent results with the Canon printer?

Thanks in advance.
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John Hollenberg

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2007, 06:40:25 pm »

You may want to ask your question on the Canon iPF5000 Wiki discussion forum:

http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/message/list/FAQ

You have to join to post, but it is quick, painless, and free.

--John
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thompsonkirk

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 06:50:49 pm »

"I have owned an Epson 4000 with Imageprint v6 for about 1.5 years. In some ways, it is a great printer. But after spending countless hours and over $1000 just on profiling the 4000, I am still not able to get as satisfactory a match as I was able to get between my monitor and my previous printer, the Epson 2200. I have grown very frustrated and want to make a change."

I doubt it's the printer's fault that your prints aren't matching your monitor - it's more likely you have a color-manaagement problem, perhaps something about soft proofing, that a new printer isn't going to fix.  

I used a 4000 for two years, but switched to an iPF5000 for a boost in print quality - & especially to avoid the 4000's repeated nozzle clogs, which seemed to increase as the printer got a lot of mileage on it.  No problems at all, matching the screen of the LaCie CRT that I was using then with print output.  But I sold the 4000 when I could still get some $ out of it & bought an iPF5000.  I had trouble with the learning curve on this printer, but did find that it made superior prints in 2 respects:  the 4000 inkset still allowed some noticeable metamerism; & gamut was wider with the Canon.  Overall, the Canon prints on HPR tended to have more vitality & depth.  I'd no longer feel right about selling a 4000 print - they're just reference prints & give-aways - because I can consistenly come up with a more satisfying version on the Canon printer.

After a reasonable amount of testing (in conjunction with a friendly neighborhood giclee printer), we concluded that the current Canon, HP, & Epson printers all make top-notch prints.  Other considerations like price, size, & need to switch black inks probably matter as much or even more than differences in their image output.  

You should expect a gain in image quality if you replace your 4000 with a current Epson, Canon, or HP.  All have slightly better inksets than the 4000.  But I wouldn't expect the result to be that your prints will be a better match to your monitor.  The good ol' 4000 should do that.  

Also be aware, if you buy an iPF5000 & use an Intel Mac, that Canon never bothered to write universal binary software that would allow you to use their PS plug-in for direct 16-bit printing.  To use this feature, you have to run CS3 in Rosetta, or else switch back for printing fron CS3 to CS2.  And Canon has had some customer service & warranty problems, as you'll see on the Wiki.  If you can swallow all this, an iPF5000 for $900 sounds like a pretty good deal.  

Kirk
www.dryreading.com/kirkthompson
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T_om

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 07:01:56 pm »

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...And Canon has had some customer service & warranty problems, as you'll see on the Wiki.

Actually, this seems to be a thing of the past.  Someone evidently extracted their corporate head from wherever it was stuck and they have been bending over backwards to make up for the extremely poor customer service start that plagued them early on in the 5000 life cycle.

They have a dedicated support team and direct line to that team.  All the recent problems I have heard about (including mine) have been addressed immediately.

Tom

PS:  My problem was minor.  Two starter ink cartridges had early failure.  One phone call and both were replaced overnight with full-sized replacements.
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John Hollenberg

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 08:24:39 pm »

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Actually, this seems to be a thing of the past.  Someone evidently extracted their corporate head from wherever it was stuck and they have been bending over backwards to make up for the extremely poor customer service start that plagued them early on in the 5000 life cycle.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137959\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed, with the exception of the Roll Feed Units.  I still think they should overnight a  RFU with the re-designed parts when one breaks (which happens a lot from the reports) instead of making the customer put up with the hassle of a service call.  There is a recent report that Canon UK did just that, but I haven't heard of Canon USA doing that.  

Back when my RFU broke, I insisted on just such an exchange, and the support person finally agreed.  Problem was, they sent another defective RFU which didn't have the new part installed and it was DOA.  The tech had to come out 2 or 3 times until they finally got it right.  Of course, that was about 8-9 months ago, and it generally only takes one service call now.  Still, the way they handled (and continue to handle) the RFU problem really hurt their reputation in my eyes.  

--John
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Wayne Fox

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2007, 02:32:02 am »

Quote
I have owned an Epson 4000 with Imageprint v6 for about 1.5 years. In some ways, it is a great printer. But after spending countless hours and over $1000 just on profiling the 4000, I am still not able to get as satisfactory a match as I was able to get between my monitor and my previous printer, the Epson 2200. I have grown very frustrated and want to make a change.

Money is tight these days, with a son about to go off to college. But I noticed recently that the Canon iPF-5000, whjich received rave reviews initially, has become a bargain. They can be had for as little as $850-$900.

So, I'd like to hear from anyone with direct experience with either or both of these machines as to the wisdom of possibly selling my Epson and replacing it with the Canon. Would ColorBurst or ColorByte RIP really be needed with the Canon (I found that it made my Epson considerably more consistent). Is the Canon easy to profile, and can I expect to get consistent results between my monitor and the printer once calibrated?

As you can see, I have been living with varying degrees of color management hell for the past couple of years, and want to see if there is some relatively economical way to get better, more consistent results with the Canon printer?

Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The learning curve on an ipf5000 is pretty steep.  If you are having problems getting good color managment with an epson 4000, it is very likely you will not be successful getting color management to work on the Canon ... it is more challenging.  While there are many rave reviews, do some searching because there are many critical as well.

You may be better off trying to understand the color managment problems you are having ... they 4000 is a very good printer and shouldn't be that difficult to profile and match.

In addition, while the 5000 is an ok printer, the new black inks of the 5100 is worth the additional investment.  The new 5100 has an improved and built in roll feed unit, a much improved paper feed system, and several other improvements, including the ability to recalibrate itself to account for slight printer variations over time.  5000's are cheap right now because they are being replaced and it never sold that well. Despite the low price I wouldn't recommend this printer to anyone.

Canon is sending me a 6100, I'll be interested in seeing how much they have improved it.  I'm sure some reviews will be hitting the net any day now.
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mkress65

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 12:23:05 pm »

That's interesting.  I didn't find the learning curve all that steep on the 5000, but maybe that's just b/c I relied on the information at the wiki?  But I do agree that he should probably figure out the color management issues before switching printers.

I haven't seen a comparison of the iPF5000 Lucia black inks vs. the newer inks -- all I've seen is Canon's statement of "less bronzing and more scratch resistant", but I didn't think that Rob G. found much of a difference.  Can you point me to the review that shows the difference?

Thanks,

Matt

Quote
The learning curve on an ipf5000 is pretty steep.  If you are having problems getting good color managment with an epson 4000, it is very likely you will not be successful getting color management to work on the Canon ... it is more challenging.  While there are many rave reviews, do some searching because there are many critical as well.

You may be better off trying to understand the color managment problems you are having ... they 4000 is a very good printer and shouldn't be that difficult to profile and match.

In addition, while the 5000 is an ok printer, the new black inks of the 5100 is worth the additional investment.  The new 5100 has an improved and built in roll feed unit, a much improved paper feed system, and several other improvements, including the ability to recalibrate itself to account for slight printer variations over time.  5000's are cheap right now because they are being replaced and it never sold that well. Despite the low price I wouldn't recommend this printer to anyone.

Canon is sending me a 6100, I'll be interested in seeing how much they have improved it.  I'm sure some reviews will be hitting the net any day now.
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T_om

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2007, 10:19:15 pm »

Quote
The learning curve on an ipf5000 is pretty steep.  If you are having problems getting good color managment with an epson 4000, it is very likely you will not be successful getting color management to work on the Canon ... it is more challenging. 


Well, no... IMHO it's not.  Color management steps are identical... calibrated monitor, profiled paper, done.

Now, getting there is not necessarily falling down easy, but it is mostly independent of the hardware involved and "works' just fine on the 5000... or Epson 4000, or Z3100, or any other printer physically capable of producing suitable output.

Tom
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Wayne Fox

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 10:33:58 pm »

Quote
That's interesting.  I didn't find the learning curve all that steep on the 5000, but maybe that's just b/c I relied on the information at the wiki?  But I do agree that he should probably figure out the color management issues before switching printers.

I haven't seen a comparison of the iPF5000 Lucia black inks vs. the newer inks -- all I've seen is Canon's statement of "less bronzing and more scratch resistant", but I didn't think that Rob G. found much of a difference.  Can you point me to the review that shows the difference?

Thanks,

Matt
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I received the the ipf5000 about 3 weeks before they shipped, and spent about 6 weeks working with it before giving up on it.  So no wiki for me ... certainly would be a big help for anyone setting up one now.

You mention  Rob G. not finding much of a difference ... I couldn't find an actual review on his site.  All I could find was his own version of Canon's press release.  

That being said, my information isn't from a review either, but from a discussion I had with 3 senior executives from CanonUSA Professional Products Marketing Division recently, the new printers are considered by them as a major improvement.  They specifically mentioned metamerism, gloss differential, scratching and grain.  They also discussed the importance of the printers ability to calibrate itself, making it far more useful for profiles from other 5100/6100 printers.  The new roll feed was a big deal, as well as some major improvement in paper feeding.  I had a lot of skewing problems with sheet feeding when using the 5000.  All things considered, some serious reasons to consider buying a current printer over one with a dubious history. But that's all based on Canon's statements so far.

Sounds like a few more days and we should see some comparisons hit the net.  Surprised they are taking this long since the 6100 I thought shipped a few months ago. Probably worth checking out.
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mkress65

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2007, 02:24:55 pm »

Thanks Wayne.  You're correct, my (incorrect) recollection of RG's comments on the new Lucia blacks was that he got his hands on the 6100, but clearly not.  However, since the 6100 has been available for at least a month (maybe 2) I thought perhaps someone had finally reviewed it and compared the old Lucia blacks vs. the new.  I know Jon Canfield is working on a review (thought he finished it last week, but could be mistaken.)  Hopefully someone will be able to validate the Canon exec's claims in the near future.  Not that I think that high level management is prone to overstating the benefits for new products or anything....

Matt

Quote
I received the the ipf5000 about 3 weeks before they shipped, and spent about 6 weeks working with it before giving up on it.  So no wiki for me ... certainly would be a big help for anyone setting up one now.

You mention  Rob G. not finding much of a difference ... I couldn't find an actual review on his site.  All I could find was his own version of Canon's press release. 

That being said, my information isn't from a review either, but from a discussion I had with 3 senior executives from CanonUSA Professional Products Marketing Division recently, the new printers are considered by them as a major improvement.  They specifically mentioned metamerism, gloss differential, scratching and grain.  They also discussed the importance of the printers ability to calibrate itself, making it far more useful for profiles from other 5100/6100 printers.  The new roll feed was a big deal, as well as some major improvement in paper feeding.  I had a lot of skewing problems with sheet feeding when using the 5000.  All things considered, some serious reasons to consider buying a current printer over one with a dubious history. But that's all based on Canon's statements so far.

Sounds like a few more days and we should see some comparisons hit the net.  Surprised they are taking this long since the 6100 I thought shipped a few months ago. Probably worth checking out.
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pixtweak

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2007, 08:43:44 pm »

Here are some comments regarding the Epson 3800 and the Canon printer.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Ep....html#compare17
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jpgentry

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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2007, 10:21:16 pm »

I've had them both and couldn't ever imagine going back to the Epson product.  Not a chance.  The Canon is the printer to buy.  Wouldn't even consider the HP either due to the poor red performance.

The Canon is a workhorse and I have something like 7000 square feet on mine.  Printheads still ticking along just fine.  

My experiences with customer service have been among the best of any company.  There has been a negative echo chamber about this printer that has been rattling around for way too long.

-Jonathan
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kevin2i

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 10:26:06 pm »

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In addition, while the 5000 is an ok printer, the new black inks of the 5100 is worth the additional investment.  The new 5100 has an improved and built in roll feed unit, a much improved paper feed system, and several other improvements, including the ability to recalibrate itself to account for slight printer variations over time.  5000's are cheap right now because they are being replaced and it never sold that well. Despite the low price I wouldn't recommend this printer to anyone.

Canon is sending me a 6100, I'll be interested in seeing how much they have improved it.  I'm sure some reviews will be hitting the net any day now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Looking forward to it.

Brian at ColorHQ mentioned the bronzing  of the blacks as a minor improvement which might be noticeable at certain angles. Bronzing isn't a glaring problem with the 5000. I have seen no bronzing.  The recalibration is not profiling, and just brings back the printer to original specs.  Not to difficult to reprofile the paper if a noticeable shift occurs, and profiling for the paper takes care of any changes in the media.

I have no doubt that for Wayne, the additional cost is worth it.  For me -- I could not pass up the deal, I basically got a 'free' printer for the price of the ink, roller and shipping.  Not sure if the 5100 is worth twice the price (I estimate at street price  + ink set + roller).  For an upgrade, I would go straight to the 6100.

I started with Canon 190 Satin - a little thin, but I've got it working very good with the latest firmware/profile/software on the PS plug-in.  Not impressed with the Canon  gloss.  Just ordered the Harmon Gloss, I'll get that profiled with one of the free profiles that came from ColorHQ

I did get a bad starter cartridge, and Canon will exchange it out, no problem.
Kevin.
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Desertbill

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 12:56:08 am »

Quote
I have owned an Epson 4000 with Imageprint v6 for about 1.5 years. In some ways, it is a great printer. But after spending countless hours and over $1000 just on profiling the 4000, I am still not able to get as satisfactory a match as I was able to get between my monitor and my previous printer, the Epson 2200. I have grown very frustrated and want to make a change.

Money is tight these days, with a son about to go off to college. But I noticed recently that the Canon iPF-5000, whjich received rave reviews initially, has become a bargain. They can be had for as little as $850-$900.

So, I'd like to hear from anyone with direct experience with either or both of these machines as to the wisdom of possibly selling my Epson and replacing it with the Canon. Would ColorBurst or ColorByte RIP really be needed with the Canon (I found that it made my Epson considerably more consistent). Is the Canon easy to profile, and can I expect to get consistent results between my monitor and the printer once calibrated?

As you can see, I have been living with varying degrees of color management hell for the past couple of years, and want to see if there is some relatively economical way to get better, more consistent results with the Canon printer?

Thanks in advance.
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Desertbill

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 01:12:11 am »

I am totally frustrated with my Epson 4000 and am about to put it out with the trash.  The reason is nozzle plugage.  If I go several days with no printing, the nozzles plug. Vast amounts of ink and money have gone into using the cleaning cycle.  The tank fills with purge ink and I need to spend $39 for another tank plus lots of money for ink.  What a disaster.  An Epson employee suggested I move the print head and pour distilled water below.  This helped once but recently has not helped.  I live in a dry climate and this printer is not suitable.The past three days I have used the nozzle cleaning utility seven times with no help.  I have also poured in distilled water three times.  Nothing works except my ink levels are going down.  Now I get a message that the yellow is too low for another nozzle cleaning cycle.  Dumping $49 into another cartridge sounds like a dumb idea to me.

I have a $1,800 piece of junk.  I probably will switch to a Canon dye ink printer like the PIXMA Pro 9000.  I can live with the smaller 13x19 prints and shorter print life.  I never again want to touch a pigment ink printer.  

Does anyone have a suggestion on what to do with my Epson 4000.  Anyone want to come pick it up in Las Vegas and take it to a humid climate?  Thanks.
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Henry Goh

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 02:41:49 am »

I'm probably one of the earliest to receive the Epson Pro Stylus 4000 globally.  I have very little problem with this printer except the rare clogging when I go on many weeks without printing.  In any case, I do not print a lot but there is a routine that I follow to ensure I avoid clogging.  I try to make a test print or simply output a 16" x 11" print once a week or fortnight.  This has allowed me to avoid having to purge and waste ink so it works out much cheaper and more efficient.

I don't know what others' expectations are, but for me, I manage to get very close print colors to match my screen.  I use a CRT monitor which I calibrate regularly with Eye One display.  I use Epson Ultrachrome inks and Epson paper.  I  use Epson's canned profiles and they work fine for me.  At most I tweak slightly for certain papers but most of the time I use Premium SemiGloss 250 and am very familiar with handing this paper/ink combination.  My earlier experiences with Epson Pro 3000, Pro Stylus XL etc have been bad.  However, back then, I did not have the routine and discipline that I now impose on myself.

To those having issues with their 4000, may I suggest you relook at your workflow.

Henry
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Desertbill

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 11:29:04 am »

Thanks for the replies.  Yes, making  a print every day or so would help.  Unfortunately I am gone for sometimes six weeks at a time.

Someone suggested adding humidity to my desert home.  This would be expensive and may or may not work.  Another suggestion by two people is to place the printer into a large plastic bag.  Add a pot of water and seal the bag when not using the printer.  Again, this may or may not work.

The company who sold this printer to me three years ago has the following interesting comment.

"I am sorry to hear all your issues with the Epson 4000 printer, but we have heard similar stories about that printer. The new Epson 4880 printer that replaces the 4800 has a new print head system in it just for that reason. "

I am not willing to take a risk on another Epson pigment ink printer.

I am at a decision point.  I cannot flush the nozzles any more because the yellow ink is empty.  Four other colors are nearly empty from my extensive flushing.  I would have to pay nearly $300 for more ink to flush down the drain.  This may or may not work.  For a little more I can give up with pigment ink and get a reliable dye ink printer.  I am leaning to the Canon PIXMA Pro 9000.  It provides shorter print life and is limited to 13x19 inch prints but probably has far higher reliability.  

I shall call Epson in one last attempt of complaint, but do not expect much from them.
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T_om

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 12:56:03 pm »

Quote
...For a little more I can give up with pigment ink...


You are tossing the baby out with the bath water.

No need to give up on pigment printers... just get a good one.  

Research has convinced me that Epson has been surpassed in the marketplace by both HP and Canon.  Both companies make excellent pigment printers with no clogging issues, no stupid gloss/matte ink swap issues, and excellent customer service.

Tom
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:56:49 pm by T_om »
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Jonathan Ratzlaff

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 05:01:20 pm »

If you have your pinter in a separate room, you can always put a humidifier into that room.  you don't need to do the whole house.

There are other posters working in desert environments who use Epson printers, Alain Briot for one.  Are they reporting the same problems?

Do you shut the printer off using the power switch when you are not using it.  Espson printers cap the heads as part of the shutoff process which reduces the heads drying out.
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Desertbill

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Should I Replace Epson 4000 w/Canon iPF5000?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 10:16:16 pm »

Thanks for your comments.  A room humidifier may or may not work.  Making frequent prints may work but I am out of town too much. I hear that the Epson 4800 is an attempt to fix the problem.  If so, Epson should so state.  Be honest Epson.  Put an add out that nozzles plug so replace your 4000 with the 4800 and take a risk. Instead, these guys keep quiet knowing they ave a problem

 I cannot take a risk. My health is at stake.  No, Epson 4800 for me.

Sorry, but this is an issue of avoiding a heart attack because of my anger.  I do not want to buy a humidifier plus all the ink needed to clean the nozzles. I could try the idea of placing the printer in a plastic bag and add water.  I am too depressed to spend the money for more ink to clear nozzles.

Yes this is throwing the baby out with the bath water, but, this baby weighs so much that shipping to another buyer is a problem.

Today an Epson 4000 sold on e-Bay for over $800.  The listing indicated the nozzles needed cleaning.  This means they are plugged. Wow, my way out.  Admit they are plugged and get some cash back.

Meanwhile I ordered the Canon PIXMA Pro 9000 and hope that people are right.  The printer never plugs per several web comments.

Thanks for all your suggestions.  Time spent on this problem is far too much compared to the much more beneficial time spent in study of stocks.  Stocks soared today.  You young folks can spend time trying to resolve printer problems.  You have time left.  Some of us are so old we do not buy green bananas or waste our lives on plugged nozzles.  Sorry for the totally depressing conclusion. I am looking forward to arrival of my Canon printer with its dye based non-plugging ink.  However, I need to keep my fingers crossed.  It is hard to type with crossed fingrs so will sign off.
Thanks again.
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