Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up

[Anders_HK]

Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders

[Doug Peterson]

Anders,

I am Chris' coworker. We hope to post an comparison of the ZD and the P21+ and P30+ test during normal exposure times (also an ISO comparison) next week. I will try to arrange to include a P25+ but cannot be sure it will be available.

I expect that in the final image you will see the greatest difference in shadow clarity/detail and color fidelity, and also how well the image responds to adjustments after capture (e.g. dodging shadows). Another consideration altogether is the feeling of the camera and the experience of actually shooting it, something perhaps other users could comment on. My two cents is the ZD is less intuitive to work with.

Doug

Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Anders_HK]

Anders,

I am Chris' coworker. We hope to post an comparison of the ZD and the P21+ and P30+ test during normal exposure times (also an ISO comparison) next week. I will try to arrange to include a P25+ but cannot be sure it will be available.

I expect that in the final image you will see the greatest difference in shadow clarity/detail and color fidelity, and also how well the image responds to adjustments after capture (e.g. dodging shadows). Another consideration altogether is the feeling of the camera and the experience of actually shooting it, something perhaps other users could comment on. My two cents is the ZD is less intuitive to work with.

Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Doug,
Much thanks, it will be good to see some examples.
Regards
Anders

[clawery]

Anders,

I had posted an ASA test with the ZD earlier in this thread.
I'll try to repost it for you.

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration

[clawery]

This is the ZD test I had posted earlier.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com

[Anders_HK]

Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

Any chance you can post some samples of Phase to ZD per my above request? At least for my shooting that is what I predominantly use. I am sure others would be interested to see what difference it is to the ZD at low ISO;s and more normal shutter speeds.

Regards
Anders

[Doug Peterson]

Anders,

I shot such a test yesterday. The results should be posted tomorrow.

Doug

Chris,

Any chance you can post some samples of Phase to ZD per my above request? At least for my shooting that is what I predominantly use. I am sure others would be interested to see what difference it is to the ZD at low ISO;s and more normal shutter speeds.

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[MarkWelsh]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while now . . . though some flaws have emerged since the ZD back came to market, Mamiya's achievement in delivering a 1.1x crop sensor at 22MP at that price point remains untarnished – how are they able to do this for $7000?

Or should the question be: if Mamiya's ZD costs $7000 and matches the performance of its nearest competitors (ie, Phase P25) in 80% of shooting situations, why are the Phase backs so much more expensive?

It's pointless to argue that a second-hand P21 is only a bit more, as if that leveled the playing field: the P21 is an entirely different animal, a smaller sensor, useless for wide angle work and outperformed for resolution in a studio environment – and it's a used item!

I want to know why there  remains such a huge discrepancy between the ZD and the Leaf 22 which appear to share the same chip. And I'd like to see prices fall in line, please.

Thank you.

[thsinar]

Dear Mark,

that's a very good question. Unfortunately I don't have any answer to it and it's "bugging" me as it is you.

All I can say is that we won't be able to sell such a product at this price, believe me. And I don't think that labour cost and other costs as such different in Japan than they are in Switzerland. So what can it be?

Best regards,
Thierry

Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while now . . . though some flaws have emerged since the ZD back came to market, Mamiya's achievement in delivering a 1.1x crop sensor at 22MP at that price point remains untarnished – how are they able to do this for $7000?

Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Anders_HK]

Dear Mark,

that's a very good question. Unfortunately I don't have any answer to it and it's "bugging" me as it is you.

All I can say is that we won't be able to sell such a product at this price, believe me. And I don't think that labour cost and other costs as such different in Japan than they are in Switzerland. So what can it be?

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ehh.... it is more expensive to produce in Europe, is it not?? I am European but work in Asia. Can it be different work efficiency in Switzerland compared to Japan... long vacations and holidays...etc?

Can it also be that Phase, Leaf are overcharging?? Also that agents are overcharging??? Taxes in country where produced? But, bottom line is perhaps that Mamiya ZD, Canon 1Ds Mark III and Nikon;s rumored match makes necessary to compete in a tougher market and lower prices or stay way higher in quality???

I got my ZD camera from Sellen in Hong Kong who is Mamiya's agent there. It was well worth my travel from Korea. There is no tax in Hong Kong, thus very good price. I paid 8,300 USD (AFDII with ZD back would have been a little more). It is interesting to note that on Ebay Hong Kong based Pro Mamiya wants 9,600 USD. Overcharging??? Any other reason???

I guess Phase and Leaf charges so much because they can. Everyone wants to make money... And... will that last?

So.... what will Phase and Leaf do??? Hmm....  

Regards
Anders

[thsinar]

I doubt that it is less expensive to produce in JP, once you have been there and seen the cost of living. And I doubt Mamiya is assembling/producing in China or elsewhere

I can certainly not speak for Leaf and Phase 1, but for what I know, for Sinar products. It is a price which can be reached for second-hand/re-furbished backs.

So there must be another reason.

Thierry

Ehh.... it is more expensive to produce in Europe, is it not?? I am European but work in Asia. Can it be different work efficiency in Switzerland compared to Japan... long vacations and holidays...etc?

Can it also be that Phase, Leaf are overcharging?? Also that agents are overcharging??? Taxes in country where produced? But, bottom line is perhaps that Mamiya ZD, Canon 1Ds Mark III and Nikon;s rumored match makes necessary to compete in a tougher market and lower prices or stay way higher in quality???

I got my ZD camera from Sellen in Hong Kong who is Mamiya's agent there. It was well worth my travel from Korea. There is no tax in Hong Kong, thus very good price. I paid 8,300 USD (AFDII with ZD back would have been a little more). It is interesting to note that on Ebay Hong Kong based Pro Mamiya wants 9,600 USD. Overcharging??? Any other reason???

I guess Phase and Leaf charges so much because they can. Everyone wants to make money... And... will that last?

So.... what will Phase and Leaf do??? Hmm....   

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Morgan_Moore]

I doubt that it is less expensive to produce in JP, once you have been there and seen the cost of living. And I doubt Mamiya is assembling/producing in China or elsewhere

I can certainly not speak for Leaf and Phase 1, but for what I know, for Sinar products. It is a price which can be reached for second-hand/re-furbished backs.

So there must be another reason.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well you could start by using a cheaper firewire connection that would save about $1

My not be worth it though

S

[Anders_HK]

This thread is way off track. Original title:

"Has every ZD/ZD back owner given up"


What is Sinar and Phase doing here trying marketing in forum to justify that three (3) or more times more expensive backs are worth it??? Are they? What do they provide extra to justify? Challenge: Please show us. How they compete with ZD? How can I as amateur justify putting up THREE times more money when I already put up FIVE times for ZD to step up from D200?

Perhaps Phase, Sinar, Leaf are quality products, in all respect... but fact is that Mamiya and now Canon and soon Nikon DO/WILL produce CHEAPER at 22MP as competition. Not same true, but Canon and Nikon more flexible. Phase, Leaf, Sinar all limited in applications.

Now.. this threaed was of ZD. I still have mine. Others do also. For reason.

The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

Do you have any NEW product at SIMILAR price at better quality?

Regards
Anders

[thsinar]

I beg you pardon?

What allows you to "attack" me this way?

I have tried to answer a question about price differences between the Mamiya back and other "equivalent" 22 MPx backs. I have not even tried to justify "our" price with some dubious marketing arguments. And not even questionned the quality or whatsoever of Mamiya.

I am glad that you are a happy Mamiya user and don't even wish to put in question your choice. And I dont think that anybody here as tried to convince you or any other to put 3 times more money in another product, whatever this product is.

So what gives you the right to attack a person this way by accusing him of using marketing arguments or only here to justify a price?

Challenge? I guess there is nothing to show or prove, especially not in this tread, right?

Best regards,
Thierry

This thread is way off track. Original title:

"Has every ZD/ZD back owner given up"
What is Sinar and Phase doing here trying marketing in forum to justify that three (3) or more times more expensive backs are worth it??? Are they? What do they provide extra to justify? Challenge: Please show us. How they compete with ZD? How can I as amateur justify putting up THREE times more money when I already put up FIVE times for ZD to step up from D200?

Perhaps Phase, Sinar, Leaf are quality products, in all respect... but fact is that Mamiya and now Canon and soon Nikon DO/WILL produce CHEAPER at 22MP as competition. Not same true, but Canon and Nikon more flexible. Phase, Leaf, Sinar all limited in applications.

Now.. this threaed was of ZD. I still have mine. Others do also. For reason.

The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

Do you have any NEW product at SIMILAR price at better quality?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Let Biogons be Biogons]

I beg you pardon?

What allows you to "attack" me this way?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let's take a deep breath.  

It does not seem to me that he was attacking you or anyone else with his post. All he was saying, perhaps a bit un-artfully, is that he has yet to see any information in this thread as to how Sinar, Leaf, Phase1, etc. compete with the ZD at 2-3 times the price.  How do they justify their prices given the affordability of the ZD -- in objective and factual terms rather than with marketing department spin.  Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.

Perhaps there is nothing more to add to the discussion beyond what has been already posted.  Look at the images produced by each,  pick the one you like, and if the one you like is produced by the back that cost 2-3 time more, then you buy that one.  There could be nomore going one here that that.  There is also the fact that the ZD is only available for the Mamiya camera, so if you are attached to your Contax, Hasselblad you have no option but to spend a  lot more money  (unless Mamiya gets wise and starts producing the ZD for Contax and Hassy bodies).  Further, I would say that upgrade pricing at the other back manufacturers makes it so that if you already have Leaf, Sinar, Phase it's not all that advantageous to switch.

[thsinar]

Not feeling especially hurt by this, however not really the kind of tone showing respect.

That's what I am always telling (and writing here) to anybody: it makes no sense to come up with marketing arguments for a product or another. I have never ever compared Sinar with any other brand here or elsewhere or said that the product is better or used "sales arguments", except to give as precise and detailled information as possible, to make clarifications, and to counter false claims about Sinar products. That's my role here, nothing more, and my intention is to continue this way.

Make your own tests and comparisons is a must, when making the choive of a product of this price class.

That's all, and I wanted it to be said.

Best regards,
Thierry

Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.

Perhaps there is nothing more to add to the discussion beyond what has been already posted.  Look at the images produced by each,  pick the one you like, and if the one you like is produced by the back that cost 2-3 time more, then you buy that one.  There could be nomore going one here that that.  There is also the fact that the ZD is only available for the Mamiya camera, so if you are attached to your Contax, Hasselblad you have no option but to spend a  lot more money  (unless Mamiya gets wise and starts producing the ZD for Contax and Hassy bodies).  Further, I would say that upgrade pricing at the other back manufacturers makes it so that if you already have Leaf, Sinar, Phase it's not all that advantageous to switch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[mtomalty]

Possibly,Mamiya is pricing their DB products as a 'lost leader' strategy.

I.E.,they decide to sell backs at,or a little below cost,with the expectation that
migration to their brand will spike significant sales gains in the camera and lens lineup.

Currently,no other manufacturer,apart from Hasselblad, has the product line in place in
the marketplace to make this a possibility.

MT

[henryhitch]

The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

You make a great point. A Phase rep jumps into this thread and dumps a bunch of images comparing the Phase backs with the ZD at ridiculously long exposures but when asked how the Phase backs compare with the ZD at the exposures most of us use on a daily basis he's suddenly MIA.

The ZD shot at ISO 50-100 produces images that are easily in the ballpark with the 22 megapixel Phase and Leaf backs.

So why does a P25 or Aptus 22 cost $10-$12k more? It has little to do with where the backs are made and more to do with manufacturer and dealer markup.

[espressogeek]

I have been cross shopping the ZD against a demo P21. There are some advantages to the p21 but I don't know if they justify the price.

Mamiya ZD,
larger sensor, more resolution without craming photosites, price, will upgrade your 645af to "d" status for free

Phase P21,
capture one support, long exposures possible, wider color gaumet (16bit vs 12bit output )

I was also curious if the Mamiya ZD supported multiple exposures without long exposures. Could one "add up" exposures to avoid the noise and retain shadow details in ambient light? Can the P21 or is it even necessary with the long exposure capability.


I am desperately interested to see if the new ZD's have the purple worm issue or not. I would like to see Mamiya be forthcoming with this information on their website and get back on the right foot rather than remain tight lipped about it.

[eronald]

I was also curious if the Mamiya ZD supported multiple exposures without long exposures. Could one "add up" exposures to avoid the noise and retain shadow details in ambient light? Can the P21 or is it even necessary with the long exposure capability.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

CS3 extended can stack images.

Edmund