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Hendrik

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ColorEyes Display Pro for windows
« on: September 03, 2007, 06:08:17 pm »

For the interested, I did a quick evaluation of the ColorEyes Display Pro calibration/profiling software for Windows. Reason is that I’m going to update my computer and probably install Vista home Premium. Unfortunately, the readme states for Vista: ‘we can not guarantee full functionality’, oh well that’s a good start.  

I used the DTP-94 Optix XR colorimeter on my good performing Samsung CRT screen.

Settings:
Generic CRT monitor
Matrix based profile, ICC v4
WP target:  D65, 90cd/m
Gamma target: L*
BP target: absolute

I downloaded the demo and you get 10 program startups in 9 days time. It seems enough, but when you try different things, you will notice those 10 tries are quickly down the drain and after only a few hours fiddling, I only got 3 or 4 tries left. I’m afraid to load the program now, since it will cost be an addition try. In my opinion, this is not the best service.

I tried to read the manual, since it’s a new piece of software and the subject is not easy to understand for most of us. Unfortunately, I could not find it. There is a guided tour, but I think it will not give much answers to most photographers. Not all photographers are color experts and although I’m not a novice I really wanted a better explanation. For example, why should I choose L* and not gamma 2.2? There are many questions unanswered.

I had the most difficulty setting the brightness level. The guided tour states that I should lower the luminance level to zero with the hardware controls. After a short calibration of my colorimeter I placed it on my screen inside the window as instructed. The software starts reading the luminance level and the text in the guide asks me to set the luminance level until the readings read 0 (zero). The readings are 5 (cd/m?), but since I already lowered the luminance to the lowest setting in the previous step, how on earth should I reach 0 (zero)? Maybe lower the contrast?

Next step is to set the RGB channels, no problems here.

The last step is to start the profiling process. … but wait … I still have set my display luminance to the lowest setting! Should I change it? No answers here. The profiling starts with reading the 76 patches (matrix passed profile) and takes its time doing it. Some hues were fast, but on some moments I thought the software had crashed. After I went for a drink and came back, I noticed it had continued. It finished with a (subjective) validation process and I had a good score (mean: 0.60 dE). Great, but my screen looked lousy, much to dark (65 cd/m). I tried it again by raising the luminance to my previous (normal) setting and the luminance was now correct (94cd/m). The pictures looked much darker, so something changed with this profile, but not for the better. What is correct? I still don’t know.

My expectations were high, but it really felt I tried a beta version. I could not get a good looking display and I had many questions unanswered. Maybe it was much better if I had sufficient documentation, but I had not. The 10 tries are not enough to get a good feeling of this program. Tomorrow, maybe I shall try it again, but chances are I reinstall my Monaco Optix XR software and go back to work.

Verdict: at this moment NOT RECOMMENDED.   

Any suggestions and additions highly appreciated.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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ColorEyes Display Pro for windows
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 09:45:12 pm »

Hendrik,

I recently encountered some of the same difficulties with Color Eyes Display Pro for Windows. Here (in brief) is my story:

I had used Color Eyes Display 3.2 quite happily for some time, and just recently upgraded to the new CED Pro. My main problem was that I seemed to be getting terrible values (average delta E over 100 and max delta E of about 200) when I tried validating my new profiles. As a registered user, I didn't have the ten-try limit that you experienced, so I went through many (probably over 20) attempts, varying lots of settings (most made little difference).

When I went back and profiled using the olde 3.2 version, I got good results right away. So I posted a query on the CE forum, and quickly got a reply from one of the principals, Derrick Brown. We arranged a time for a phone conference, and he "held my hand" while I went through many steps, for over an hour (maybe two).

Following that session I tried some experiments that Derrick suggested, and confirmed some things. One is that there does seem to be a bug in the profile validation routine (of the Windows version). I found that if I asked CED Pro to "auto-validate" after profiling, it always gave me terrible numbers --- because it was sending the wrong color patches to be checked!!! However, if I closed CED Pro after making a profile and then immediately opened it again, the validation procedure worked just fine (clearly some variables are not getting re-initialized correctly).

My understanding is that the software was originally written for Macs, and then ported to Windows. So there do seem to be a few glitches in the porting. And, indeed, there is a lot that isn't explained in the "guided tour", and most importantly about setting the brightness level. On my LCD (Samsung 213T), Derrick had me try various levels until I could get the R, G, and B levels all pretty close to the zero mark (i.e., balanced) in the meter that CED Pro puts up for checking brightness.

I hope fervently that they do provide a much more detailed explanation of the business of setting the brightness level, and fix the validation bug soon.

Derrick's partner, Jack Bingham often posts on the LL forum, so I hope he or Derrick is listening and will respond to your post. As for me, CED 3.2 was so far superior to the Optix software that I had (almost) no intention of going back. And now I think I have CED Pro pretty well tamed, so I am happy with it.

As for Vista, the delays in fixing the Windows version may well be because all of their Windows guys are busy trying to deal with Vista. Thankfully, I'm still using XP Pro, so I can give them a little more time to get it working right. If I were getting a new PC now, I would seriously consider setting it up as a dual-boot system with both XP Pro and Vista, until Vista itself is a little smoother.

I hope this helps.
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Hendrik

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ColorEyes Display Pro for windows
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 05:32:03 pm »

I made another attempt this evening. After hours wandering in the dark, I could not get a good profile. The dE was low, in a matter of fact, even lower compared to my Monaco Optix XR created profiles, but the neutrals were not as grey as I remembered and I saw a reddish colorcast near the blacks in the grayscale gradient on the DryCreekPhoto website.

Since every profiling session lasts near 11 minutes with ColorEyes Display Pro, time flew away before I knew it. I de-installed the software and installed my old Monaco software. No guessing with the luminance values and the profiling session with my old program only took a small fraction of the time compared to ColorEyes and the colors and neutrality were perfect again. The dE was higher . I can see from step 2 with the Monitor Black Point Check and max. Luminance is 90 cd/m. Pfff, everything is back to normal.

I know, it must be my fault. The reviews are very good and conclude that ColorEyes Pro is the best you can get, … but why can’t I? Maybe a real manual will give the answer.

I good example how a small company (individual) can give excellent service is Mario M. Westphal, the creator of IMATCH on www.photools.com. I have a big manual (version 3) for his creation, over 300 pages explaining every tiny detail and has an excellent readability. How about that?  

… as you might have guessed, … I’m disappointed. I almost bought the software without a test, because of the great reviews it got. Nothing could go wrong …?  
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digitaldog

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ColorEyes Display Pro for windows
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 10:09:05 pm »

What are your results using the OTPIX software?
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Hendrik

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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 04:16:48 am »

Quote
What are your results using the OTPIX software?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not working on that computer; therefore I have to memorize the values, but ...

I see neutral grays, no color casts in the gradient. Excellent shadows and highlights and see all steps from RGB 2,2,2 to RGB 255,255,255 without any clipping. Black point 0,21cd/m and white point 91cd/m. 6500K and gamma 2.2
When I do a validation with the Optix software, I have a mean value near the 1.25dE (ColorEyes gave me a better value, mean aprox. 0.65dE).

The reason I tried ColorEyes is that the Monaco software is discontinued and I wanted a good alternative that is supported in the next few years.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 11:16:01 am »

Quote
When I do a validation with the Optix software, I have a mean value near the 1.25dE (ColorEyes gave me a better value, mean aprox. 0.65dE).

So much for feel good validation values, you say the numbers are better and the display looks like barf.

As for the OPTIX software, it will be supported for 7 years after the unit was discontinued.

At least we know its not the instrument, or how you are driving the basic idea of setting calibration target aim points. That's why I was curious about using the OPTIX software.
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Scott Martin

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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 11:25:23 am »

A few observations:

The Color Eyes Display Pro (CEDP) demo allows you as many "trys" or calibrations as you want within 10 launches in 10 days. So you can calibrate and recalibrate your display hundreds of times during this period as long as you don't relaunch the application between each attempt. Integrated Color occasionally extends the trial period for those that botch their first attempts. They also provide good support. Have you contacted them for either? It wouldn't be very nice to publicly announce a "not recommended" bad review if you haven't done so or at least had more experience with it.

You have changed the targets settings from the windows defaults of 16-bit LUT based ICC v2 profile with maximum luminance and relative black rendering. This is quite possibly part of your problem. Have you tried the recommend target aims? Have you tried Gamma 2.2 with relative black point?

There is no manual. When you use the software in the default Guided Tour mode it explains every option including L* in detail. If you are a new user you should be using Guided tour mode and read their explanation for every step.

Manual CRT calibration is the most complicated type of display calibration. LCD calibration is much easier. To make CRT calibration easier CEDP has a "DDC CRT Monitor" option that sets all of the monitors brightness, contrast and RGB gain setting for you if you have a DDC capable monitor. Have you tried this option - is your CRT DDC compatible?

In this day and age it is kind of impressive that someone has written a brand new, from the ground up display calibration package that includes exhaustive CRT capabilities.

You mention it takes 11 minutes to calibrate and profile your display. Since CEDP uses an iterative process whereby it continues to tweak the results at every step before proceeding to the next step, I've seen it take only 4 minutes to calibrate a healthy monitor and over 45 minutes to complete the process on a worn out CRT monitor. The quality of the calibration on the worn out CRT was incredible and much better than the other packages I tried calibrating with!

Your CRT is quite possibly near the end of its usable life so a good calibration may be difficult to impossible.

Think of the Contrast adjustment as primarily adjusting white luminance on a CRT. On an older CRT you may need to keep this at 100%.

RGB gains also affect white luminance. You should keep one of the RGB settings (almost always Red) at it's maximum setting without blooming (which is usually 100) and only lower the other two gains (usually green and blue). So it's common to have Red at 100, green at ~20% less and blue at another ~20% less than green. That's just a rough example - your results may vary.

Think of the Brightness adjustment as primarily adjusting black luminance on a CRT. Brightness and Contrast do not behave the same way on LCDs monitors so you'll need to forget this when you move on to an LCD.

If you haven't done so already check out the Gray Balance feature that allows you to tweak the iteration points for gray balance calibration. I've never needed to use this feature but you may need to. This and the White Point Tuning feature are two features that set CEDP apart from the competition.

I've got an insane amount of display calibration experience with this and the other calibration packages on just about every combination of computers and displays you can imagine. I've been doing display calibration (among other things) for hire since 1994. Honestly I look forward to the day when I won't have to do this anymore and hope that this process gets easier and more automated. CEDP has come a long way since their introduction into this market and, IMHO have the best product that fills a needed void. I think they and basICColor are the underdogs with the superior products that the big dogs are not competing with on the same level. I always like to support those in that position.

Give it another shot at your maximum contrast, 16 bit Lut based v2 profile, gamma 2.2, relative black and let's see what you get.
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 04:34:17 pm »

Hendrik - were you able to try it again with settings mentioned above? How did it come out?
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Hendrik

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 05:53:03 pm »

Quote
A few observations:

The Color Eyes Display Pro (CEDP) demo allows you as many "trys" or calibrations as you want within 10 launches in 10 days. So you can calibrate and recalibrate your display hundreds of times during this period as long as you don't relaunch the application between each attempt. Integrated Color occasionally extends the trial period for those that botch their first attempts. They also provide good support. Have you contacted them for either? It wouldn't be very nice to publicly announce a "not recommended" bad review if you haven't done so or at least had more experience with it.

I lost some attempts, because my colorimeter wasn't recognized. I relaunched the application a few times in an attempt to solve the issue. I had enough tries left. Problem was, I didn't know were to go. There were many options and none had a good explanation what was the best setting for my situation. The default settings didn't gave good results, after that I was lost. If I had more information (manual) I could go further in a more intelligent way. I tried the forum, but after registration, I still couldn’t do a thing since my registration had to be activated. In the period I tried ColorEyes, I couldn’t do any serious editing on my computer, so my time was limited.
Quote
You have changed the targets settings from the windows defaults of 16-bit LUT based ICC v2 profile with maximum luminance and relative black rendering. This is quite possibly part of your problem. Have you tried the recommend target aims? Have you tried Gamma 2.2 with relative black point?

I tried the default settings in my first attempt, but had changed to ICC v4, because that is the new and recommended profile (info from Digital Dog website if I remember correctly). But here again, I didn't really understand what consequence it could have. The L* was recommended, but don't know why. I haven't tried gamma 2.2 and relative. The text (guide) suggested it was not the best thing to do. Don't know why.

Quote
There is no manual. When you use the software in the default Guided Tour mode it explains every option including L* in detail. If you are a new user you should be using Guided tour mode and read their explanation for every step.

Maybe I missed a great deal of info, because the text I have read (after I pressed 'more') wasn't really informative and didn't gave me the answers I had. It is better then nothing.

Quote
Manual CRT calibration is the most complicated type of display calibration. LCD calibration is much easier. To make CRT calibration easier CEDP has a "DDC CRT Monitor" option that sets all of the monitors brightness, contrast and RGB gain setting for you if you have a DDC capable monitor. Have you tried this option - is your CRT DDC compatible?

No, mine is not DCC compatible.

Quote
In this day and age it is kind of impressive that someone has written a brand new, from the ground up display calibration package that includes exhaustive CRT capabilities.

I agree, I greatly support these initiative. That's one of the reasons I really was disappointed. I almost bought it untested, because I believed it would blow my old routine away. Do not forget however, that many payable LCD screens are bad and many photographers still work on CRT screens, so I would expect the support of CRT screens.

Quote
You mention it takes 11 minutes to calibrate and profile your display. Since CEDP uses an iterative process whereby it continues to tweak the results at every step before proceeding to the next step, I've seen it take only 4 minutes to calibrate a healthy monitor and over 45 minutes to complete the process on a worn out CRT monitor. The quality of the calibration on the worn out CRT was incredible and much better than the other packages I tried calibrating with!

I did not know that, I believed the first time it had crashed and I terminated the software. The second time I went for a coffee break. Maybe they should use your  explanation in their readme file?

Quote
Your CRT is quite possibly near the end of its usable life so a good calibration may be difficult to impossible.

No it is not. I have a perfect screen after calibration with the Monaco software. I have much brightness to spare and my RGB channels are balanced. No, the screen is fine.

Quote
Think of the Contrast adjustment as primarily adjusting white luminance on a CRT. On an older CRT you may need to keep this at 100%.

RGB gains also affect white luminance. You should keep one of the RGB settings (almost always Red) at it's maximum setting without blooming (which is usually 100) and only lower the other two gains (usually green and blue). So it's common to have Red at 100, green at ~20% less and blue at another ~20% less than green. That's just a rough example - your results may vary.

I have contrast @ 100, brightness @ 63. My RGB channels are 100%, 70%, 95% and give a perfect 6500K

Quote
Think of the Brightness adjustment as primarily adjusting black luminance on a CRT. Brightness and Contrast do not behave the same way on LCDs monitors so you'll need to forget this when you move on to an LCD.

If you haven't done so already check out the Gray Balance feature that allows you to tweak the iteration points for gray balance calibration. I've never needed to use this feature but you may need to. This and the White Point Tuning feature are two features that set CEDP apart from the competition.

I've got an insane amount of display calibration experience with this and the other calibration packages on just about every combination of computers and displays you can imagine. I've been doing display calibration (among other things) for hire since 1994. Honestly I look forward to the day when I won't have to do this anymore and hope that this process gets easier and more automated. CEDP has come a long way since their introduction into this market and, IMHO have the best product that fills a needed void. I think they and basICColor are the underdogs with the superior products that the big dogs are not competing with on the same level. I always like to support those in that position.

Give it another shot at your maximum contrast, 16 bit Lut based v2 profile, gamma 2.2, relative black and let's see what you get.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe your experience gave you all the info you needed?

I really appreciate your comment. My late reply was caused by a lack of time and I wanted to give you a decent reply in the weekend, but after your mail, I wanted to give you an instant feedback. The reviews were very good, so I do believe it's something I did not do correctly. I expect the program earns a ‘Highly Recommended’, but in my opinion only after they have written a good manual so that we (photographers/users) know how to use it and can solve problems on our own.

I'm building a new system (already ordered) and expect a new screen (Samsung LCD 215TW) any day now. I shall try it again. It's almost midnight here, so stop my answer at this point.  
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Hendrik

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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2007, 12:24:47 pm »

Update:

I build a new system and upgraded (some will say downgraded) to MS Vista 32bit. I also bought a new display (LCD) and decided to give ColorEyes a new try.

I’m happy to say, ColorEyes works under Vista. I made a new profile, this time with a Table-Based profile and recommended L* and got a very good result.

The raving reviews on the Internet do mean something of course and I honestly believe they have made a good product. I decided to buy the software, the results are good and the product is still growing stronger. The forum they have, also gives good support.

As you can see, my critical tone is somewhat diminished.  If they make a better manual and give some more explanation on some parts, they have a piece of software that will make many people happy and don’t scare people away when they try the first time, but got disappointing results.
 
Just make a test-drive yourself.  
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