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Author Topic: Valid MF criticism or not?  (Read 111088 times)

Frank Doorhof

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #280 on: September 10, 2007, 03:12:55 am »

@infocuinc,
I did not mean any disrepect, I never do.
However it's my opinion that most of the shots can be made with both.

The way you use your MF or DSLR will greatly influence the outcome.
But I will shut op now.
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #281 on: September 10, 2007, 03:34:05 am »

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Finally, finally I have to admit that as a businessman it was really stupid of me to try to perswade anyone of superiority of DB's or show the files. Canon is superior in every respect. Honesty is honesty but I need to make a living.

Http://AndreNapier.com
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Andre,

I think that has been the missing element I was looking for in all these threads.  At the end of the day, if you do photography as a business, you need to market and sell your services successfully more than anything else.  Leave the Artist at the door until you can well afford the luxury of not shooting for your meals again.  Thanks for bringing things back to earth.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #282 on: September 10, 2007, 03:45:02 am »

From a business perspective I have chosen to use a MFDB. For one of my largest clients I shoot almost exclusively shoes (some bags & belts & some interior shots now and than).

I work for them about 4 months a year. In those 4 months they make 12 issues of 3 magazines (they do more magazines but I just happen to work for 3 of them). A magazine for B2B in the shoe industry and 2 magazines for fashion (men & women, also B2B).

On an  average working day I do about 500 shots, after that day I can bill them 2 hours of post production. I have tweaked my setup and workflow so I am able to do this (sometimes when there are a lot of white laquer or white shiny things it is more difficult).

I used to do this with my A17 and recently the CF39. The competition uses the MKII. The last 6 issues my client has seen his ads income gone up dramatically, all magazines have grown around 10 pages on average.

Their clients/advertisers clearly see the different quality in print. They do not know anything about equipment (other than most consumers). Remarks we get are: colors are spot on (those people are really vicious towards the colors of their products), shoes look like you can just grab them of the pages and other nice things.

Naturally these remarks can come because I am great at photographing shoes  

Anyway is it just me or the gorgeous files I get out of my MFDB or a combination of the 2?. Could I get the same results when using a MKIII? I don't know, I have not tried but this works for me and because I can work quickly with it I can earn it back within a year.

Now. This just applies to me and might be different for other people or other forms of photography. My point is that it sometimes might be worth the money to use a MFDB. Having said that, naturally I try to get those things at the lowest possible pricepoint  (so are my clients).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 03:47:28 am by Dustbak »
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #283 on: September 10, 2007, 04:37:51 am »

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Now. This just applies to me and might be different for other people or other forms of photography. My point is that it sometimes might be worth the money to use a MFDB. Having said that, naturally I try to get those things at the lowest possible pricepoint  (so are my clients).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138344\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What is important is you have a client who is using your services because they like your work.  How you arrive at making those images is less important to them than to you.  By using the right tool, in this case you choice of MFDB, you are probably more productive and consistent in production of those images.  I'm sure your skills and experience have as much to play in making those quality images.

Would love to see some of those shoes as I always feel product shots that are well done must have the kind of appeal that makes the consumer want to "eat" them like good food.

Henry
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Dustbak

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« Reply #284 on: September 10, 2007, 07:54:43 am »

I have no problems with that. Below is a link to an image I took last week. One of a batch of about 150 shoes. I have downscaled this image to a dimension a bit more friendly for web purposes.

I can only spend about a minute per image on average, this one was a bit harder because of the reflective areas. Especially the white parts. This one is part of the 2008 summer collection.

http://www.peperkamp.com/samples/gerryweber0002.jpg
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 07:56:28 am by Dustbak »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #285 on: September 10, 2007, 08:02:13 am »

during my last larger work my clients liked the images they saw meanwhile the shooting ( it went over several weeks on location ). they decided  to make an exhibition of 18 selected motifs and to take over the images later. as size they thought in something around 70x90" ( 180x220 ), some motifs even somehow larger.
i would not have liked to see this images made from 5d ( nor from 1ds2 ) images, stitched or not, regardless how good corrected they would have been. i simply would not have made them so big from canon images and i certainly would have had to sell them in this case much cheaper as i could do in its size and in a quality which was really good,- even so big. ( although this was a lot of post-pro work to get them clean enough in every detail and to up-size them good enough to print them in this sizes,- for an exhibition where the people could put their nose on the images ).
Jobs as this one  justify for me to use  the best resolution and quality i can get from the hardware side, even if this just happens rare.
the things depend  where is your position in the market and for which needs are the images you make.
but of course its also important to know where you want to go, because your wishes decide which switch you make, if the (rare) moments come where you can take decisions in your life. but this is not determined by equipment, in contrary i think its hindered by too much trust and thoughts in technik.

in general my believe is, as i expressed clear enough before, that at first have to be learned the skills,- money or expansive systems never will compensate a lack of them.
i have no opinion about product or fashion ...
but i think any  classification of colleagues,- based on with which system they work,- makes similar sense as a classification of your competitors which is based on the car they drive.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 08:08:29 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Dustbak

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« Reply #286 on: September 10, 2007, 08:14:40 am »

Sure, I can second that. I am trying to learn every day. I see progress in my work every year (though it tends to go slower now than before).

I spend many many hours in training myself to get better and faster in post processing. Train myself in better understanding light and how to use it, etc..etc..

When looking at the images of some others I see there still is a long way to go which is good. No, the tools are only so much in the equation. It is a total package that you need to address.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 08:15:05 am by Dustbak »
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #287 on: September 10, 2007, 08:14:51 am »

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Their clients/advertisers clearly see the different quality in print. They do not know anything about equipment (other than most consumers). Remarks we get are: colors are spot on (those people are really vicious towards the colors of their products), shoes look like you can just grab them of the pages and other nice things.

Naturally these remarks can come because I am great at photographing shoes  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138344\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think anyone here is saying that there are a few segments of the business where, of course, you'd want medium-format, if you were a working pro -- Still Life, Architecture, or Product/Catalogue. You're shooting things that don't move, and generally, under controlled conditions. No one is arguing that.

The questions about 35 vs MF come up in those other grey areas -- Fashion and Lifestyle, where you might need super fast recycle; no moire; portability; and a large usable LCD if you didn't have the luxury of shooting tethered. That's where the valid questions begin.

My point, again, is to not get caught up in the hype of medium-format, thinking that all of a sudden your pictures will be three times better, (to justify the three times cost). Because in low-light situations on locations, or in action situations, many times I'm betting that the 1ds3 will hold its own to any MF brand. If the 1ds2 did it, then for sure, the 1ds3 will do it, especially if they've calmed down the AA filter.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 08:17:58 am by Mark_Tucker »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #288 on: September 10, 2007, 08:17:28 am »

I agree,

When I work I make damn sure I can use my MF equipment. If not or if in doubt I will most certainly take the DSLR and just get the job done. I much rather have a bit less quality but the shots that are needed than turn up with no images because I cannot cope that situation with my MF setup. In those situations most of the time there isn't any reference with MF either because nobody (in its right mind) does it. For fun I tried to cover a marathon once with my MF setup, I made about 300images of which 90% was completely unusable. This would be totally unacceptable for a commercial assignment.

Good thing with the DigiFlex setup is that I only need to carry 1 set of lenses and a small backup body (D200).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 08:22:43 am by Dustbak »
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jjj

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« Reply #289 on: September 10, 2007, 08:17:44 am »

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The weather-light relationship can be interpreted in many different ways. I supose the P45 wasn't up to the way you work. And that's normal because the Canon's aren't up, or maybe I should say, don't fit in the way I work. But I don't think you should judge a entire system like the P45 because of a extreme situation. That happens with every system.
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I don't think one should judge posts without reading them.  
I wasn't using a P45 I was using a H3 with the 39M back.
Besides, I would hardly call using 400 or even 800 ISO extreme. I'd call that fairly normal myself. And I actually used the camera for a situation that was different from how I normally work and chose a H3 as that should have been ideal for the job. It wasn't. Its 400ISO performance was appalling
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Ray

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« Reply #290 on: September 10, 2007, 08:53:56 am »

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I drive a Porsche...do I need it? NO!!.  I also got a BMW X5...did I need 15K in extra's? NO!! Did I need that diamond covered Breitling watch? NO a timex tell's me the same time and digital!! BUT damn if you can afford it life is so f'ing NICE! At least you know what you are doing it all for....for about 3 minutes and than you realize:
Can I do without it?? SURE...do I want to? NO! Does it really make my life nicer?? NO!!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 

Ah! Now all is clear! I think I've doscovered the source of this extra 3-dimensionality attributed to the larger sensor of the MFDB.

When arriving at the studios, you park your Porsche in a prominent position viewable from the studio windows. As you are setting up your MF gear and lighting for the shoot, the models are passing time ogling at your beautiful Porsche, oohing! and aahhing!, eyes popping.

You're ready to start shooting, the girls settle down, but their eyes are still popping. Hence the 3D effect    .

Sorry! Couldn't resist!  
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thsinar

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« Reply #291 on: September 10, 2007, 09:02:06 am »

that's a good one, but how then to make popping a pair of shoes?!

 

Thierry

Quote
Ah! Now all is clear! I think I've doscovered the source of this extra 3-dimensionality attributed to the larger sensor of the MFDB.

When arriving at the studios, you park your Porsche in a prominent position viewable from the studio windows. As you are setting up your MF gear and lighting for the shoot, the models are passing time ogling at your beautiful Porsche, oohing! and aahhing!, eyes popping.

You're ready to start shooting, the girls settle down, but their eyes are still popping. Hence the 3D effect    .

Sorry! Couldn't resist! 
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Thierry Hagenauer
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rainer_v

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« Reply #292 on: September 10, 2007, 09:16:15 am »

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that's a good one, but how then to make popping a pair of shoes?!

 

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
erased, for beeing a tooooo stupid comment
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 10:25:03 am by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Ray

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« Reply #293 on: September 10, 2007, 10:07:06 am »

Quote
that's a good one, but how then to make popping a pair of shoes?!

 

Thierry
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With a dazzling white background it's rather difficult not to pop out   .
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jjj

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« Reply #294 on: September 10, 2007, 10:35:50 am »

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JJJ,
I should have made it clear in my audio analogy that the comparison was not between whole systems of different quality and expense, but between exotic and expensive components such as amplifiers which, on paper, might all have differences, but which differences could be considered either inaudible to the human ear or completely masked by other imperfections of a far greater magnitude in the chain, such as the imperfections of loudspeaker and room acousticts.
The quality of an image or of the sound coming from a speaker is always dependent upon the weakest link in the chain. But then you wouldn't buy a £4000 amp and use a £200 Cd player. But also with audio certain combinations of kit work better together than other as they complement each other, which I explained above. You do not get the same thing in imaging. So the analogy falls down there a bit.
Plus you buy an expensive hi-fi to match your room's acoustics. A good hi-fi shop will usually let you test it in situ. A friend of mine altered a room to complement his hi-fi.

I've listened to expensive hi-fi and very expensive hi-fi. There can be a huge difference. Some people may not notice or care, just look at the popularity of mp3s. Worse sound than CD and more expensive to buy compared to full CDs. And no packaging, manufacturing or distribution costs either, yet people lap them up. No wonder Apple are so flush with money these days.  
Also not all expensive things are the best. That's the case in any field. I've ridden £3000 bicycles that felt awful and £300 ones that felt great, but by and large the more you pay the better the bike. But not always. And if a bike doesn't fit you and your specific proportions and isn't set up correctly, it'll be crap, no matter what the price is.

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In order to sell such components and persuade people to upgrade from a perfectly adequate amplifier to one costing perhaps 4x the price, it was necessary to bestow upon the equipment magical properties.

It was necessary for salesman and those in the audio industry to promulgate the notion that the scientific specifications don't tell the whole story; that there are great subtleties to be heard, extra 3-dimensionality etc that would flow on merely from the fact that the wiring might be made from oxygen-free copper in the more expensive amplifier, for example.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just because some spurious sounding claims are made by some salesmen, doesn't mean some products aren't noticeably better. Cables can actually make a big difference. I've heard it.  It's just like little details in sensor design can say affect noise performance in the shadows or Chromatic aberation....
Besides if you buy a more 4x expensive amp without listening to it you're an idiot.
Then there are plenty of 'idiots' around   , look at how popular flat screen TVs are. Which are way inferior to CRTs.

As you brought up 'a perfectly adequate amplifier' A Canon IXUS is perfectly adequate camera. So why even buy a 5D let along say a P45? After all the claims about sensor sensitivity, well depth and Chromatic Aberation must be hype simplyto justify the 10x or 100x cost of the bigger cameras.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 11:09:29 am by jjj »
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jpjespersen

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« Reply #295 on: September 10, 2007, 03:36:03 pm »

I think the bottom line is there are different cameras for different jobs and different people.  Only you yourself knows which camera is best for your kind of work.  I personally know that I need a 39 megapixel camera for my work, and that I make a lot more money than I did with my canon.  
Some types of work benefit from using DSLR and these photographers may make more money with their DSLR.  They just don't look as cool as us with our MFDB's.  LOL
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 03:37:58 pm by jpjespersen »
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nicolaasdb

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« Reply #296 on: September 10, 2007, 10:29:40 pm »

I think you are right RAY.....that is exactly what I do....and that is why even my ds1 gives the 3D effect! Shit...I should have known this beforehand and saved myself 35K for the MFDB....or I could have just bought the back and saved 100grand by buying the MFDB and not the car...mmmmmm....wel I never said I was smart!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 10:30:27 pm by nicolaasdb »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #297 on: September 10, 2007, 11:35:13 pm »

That's 1Ds, not DS1. A thing someone who owns the camera should probably know...
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nicolaasdb

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« Reply #298 on: September 11, 2007, 04:07:19 am »

RIGHT!! and who cares??
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 04:21:50 am by nicolaasdb »
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Ray

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« Reply #299 on: September 11, 2007, 04:20:39 am »

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The quality of an image or of the sound coming from a speaker is always dependent upon the weakest link in the chain. But then you wouldn't buy a £4000 amp and use a £200 Cd player. .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would, especially if I already owned the CD player, and I might feel a bit dubious about the benefits of a 1000 pound CD player.

Generally, the factors that have the greatest effect on any recording and its playback are; the acoustics of the auditorium where the recording was made; the skill of the sound engineer in placement of mics and later mixing of tracks if required; the loudspeakers used during playback, and the acoustics of the listening room.

These are the critical factors that have to be got right for good results. Everything else is basically secondary and even irrelevant, within reason of course. The amplifier has to have sufficient power to drive the speakers. The copper interconnects have to be of a sufficient gauge to pass the current with negligible resistance. The CD player needs to be at least of basic quality. (A bottom of the range portable CD player designed for listening to music whilst jogging would probably compromise quality.)

It's also understood the mics and digital tape recorder used for the recording would be of standard, professional quality.

The issue here is, if you believe that $500 interconnects, $5,000 CD players and/or $10,000 exotic amplifiers improve the sound quality to a clearly identifiable and audible extent, can you demonstrate it with a double blind test?

If you can, then goodonya. You've got remarkable hearing   .
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