PrintFIX Pro 2.x Profiling Problem--HELP!!

[mikeseb]

I print with the Epson 4000 on a variety of papers, from a Mac OS X 10.4.x (latest). I have installed PrintFIX Pro 2.0 suite and have run into a problem that even the PFP guys haven't been able to help me solve, though they've tried mightily, to their great credit. I suspect it's a settings problem somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  Maybe someone here has had, and overcome, a similar issue?

Problem occurs when printing out the profiling targets from PFP; the targets are colorshifted such that they are unusable for profiling; the problem is most profound with their Extended Grays profile, which is a gray-green muddy mess, but there is some problem with their color targets as well.

Troubleshooting steps I have taken include:

1. checked and double checked that printer color management is turned off in the printer driver (good heavens, Epson, can we ever make that simpler?);
2. verified that all nozzles are working via a nozzle check;
3. verified that the printer can print a normal appearing print from other applications using canned profiles or ImagePrint;
4. printed the profiling targets directly from both Photoshop and Lightroom (rather than thru PFP), again verifying that the media settings are correct and color management is turned off in both the apps ("Printer Color Management" in LR) and in the printer driver.

The prints look just like prints I got way back when I was first learning digital printing, and had color management somehow turned on in both the printing application and in the printer driver, causing "double" management--shifted to gray or green, dark, muddy.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[digitaldog]

4. printed the profiling targets directly from both Photoshop and Lightroom (rather than thru PFP), again verifying that the media settings are correct and color management is turned off in both the apps ("Printer Color Management" in LR) and in the printer driver.

You can't print targets out of Lightroom with no color management making me wonder if something else is going on with your printing process. If the targets from LR and PS matched, you didn't print the Photoshop target correctly.

[mikeseb]

You can't print targets out of Lightroom with no color management making me wonder if something else is going on with your printing process. If the targets from LR and PS matched, you didn't print the Photoshop target correctly.
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The prints from LR and PS looked pretty similarly bad, meaning that I'm screwing up consistently.

In LR the only choice I saw was to choose either "managed by printer" or one of the profiles on my system; I chose the former. From PS I chose "no color management"; from both apps, when the Epson driver appeared, I turned off color management.

When printing targets from the PFP application, your only choices are those presented by the printer driver, and again I disabled color management there.

At least I think so. The Epson driver has the stubborn tendency to activate color management whenever any setting is changed; I always turned it off as my last step before printing.

I'm going awry somewhere and I just can't figure out WHERE!

Tried to print the target from ImagePrint, but couldn't manage to get it to print using IP's recommended procedure for disabling color management; kept getting an error message that relates to having CM disabled! And IP's user manual does not reflect all changes in the interface from version 6 to 7, another source of confusion.

I'm maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I don't think it should be THIS hard!

[digitaldog]

Aside from Managed by Printer being a huge hurt me button, it does apply color management and can't be used to print targets.

In Photoshoip's Print with Preivew (Print in CS3), you must select No Color Management. There's no similar settings in LR. IF the Photoshop and LR profiles are the same, you messed up in the Photoshop printing as well as LR (which again, can't be used for printing non color managed output).

[gemsib]

Printing the targets directly from PFP eliminates any software problem - there is no advantage to printing them from any other app unless you are trying to change target size...
I assume that you realize Digital Dog knows whereof he speaks - did you look on his site for info?  Support at PFP is also top grade ... so it seems to me that the problem must be in the Epson settings...

However, you do realize that the target prints will NOT look pleasing ?  They are raw data intended to show what adjustments need to be made!  What happens when you make a profile from them?  How does that print look (you even have a sample on-screen display in PFP which lets you view the image with the profile on or off after reading the targets)....

Turning off printer color management is not all that hard, I am really wondering if the problem is there, or in expecting good looking targets.

enjoy  billb

[francois]

Mike,
When you opened your target files in Photoshop, did you verify that the profile policy dialog was displayed and "Leave as is (don't color manage)" was choosen? You might have your settings in Photoshop (Cmd + Shift + K)  set to "Assign working RGB" or "Assign Profile>".

PS: To get this dialog you need to check Profile Mismatches> Ask When Opening

[dgillilan]

I print with the Epson 4000 on a variety of papers, from a Mac OS X 10.4.x (latest). I have installed PrintFIX Pro 2.0 suite and have run into a problem that even the PFP guys haven't been able to help me solve, though they've tried mightily, to their great credit. I suspect it's a settings problem somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  Maybe someone here has had, and overcome, a similar issue?

Problem occurs when printing out the profiling targets from PFP; the targets are colorshifted such that they are unusable for profiling; the problem is most profound with their Extended Grays profile, which is a gray-green muddy mess, but there is some problem with their color targets as well.

Troubleshooting steps I have taken include:

1. checked and double checked that printer color management is turned off in the printer driver (good heavens, Epson, can we ever make that simpler?);
2. verified that all nozzles are working via a nozzle check;
3. verified that the printer can print a normal appearing print from other applications using canned profiles or ImagePrint;
4. printed the profiling targets directly from both Photoshop and Lightroom (rather than thru PFP), again verifying that the media settings are correct and color management is turned off in both the apps ("Printer Color Management" in LR) and in the printer driver.

The prints look just like prints I got way back when I was first learning digital printing, and had color management somehow turned on in both the printing application and in the printer driver, causing "double" management--shifted to gray or green, dark, muddy.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Mike,
I also use the PrintFix Pro 2.1 unit. I print the targets directly from within the PrintFix Pro software. I do not print the targets from my Photoshop CS3 or anything else.  As others said, print those targets from Printfix Pro including the ones of the test images(with baby faces along bottom, black and white strips on the right side, etc.) I printed the "Baby face" image with printer color turned OFF and then printed a target to read patches from Printfix Pro, and then created my icc profile, and then compared my resulting prints using the newly created icc profile with those "Baby face target images" to the original "baby face" images that I printed before I had an icc profile assigned to it, and the difference is of course striking.
Debra

[mikeseb]

I appreciate everyone's input--and I definitely know Andrew is da man in color management--good to have him, and everyone else, chiming in on the case!

I left a few things unmentioned in my original post for the sake of brevity. Originally I had printed targets and made profiles which resulted in pretty messed up looking images. Contacting tech support about that and some other issues related to installation, I sent the measured-data files to ColorVision at their tech's request; they were so far off the expected values, so consistently abnormal, that they were unusable. A bad spectro is not suspected based on the pattern of the abnormalities. I did not expect that the targets would look "good", only that I'd be able to make a decent profile from them.

Printing the targets from PS, LR, and (attempted) ImagePrint was only a troubleshooting step, to make sure I was getting pretty much the same (unmanaged) looking targets regardless of how they were printed; and to make sure I hadn't somehow tagged the targets with a profile (I had not.) Using canned profiles or printing in ImagePrint (bypassing the epson driver in the latter) I get normal looking color and B&W prints; this helps me rule out a printer or ink malfunction as the cause of my problems. I certainly expect that the targets I print will not look exactly like the screen image in PFP, but the measured data was way WAAY off compared to CV's experience with other Epson 4000's.

I'm gonna start from scratch and try again, incorporating all of your suggestions and triple checking things. I do appreciate the input. If anyone else can think of anything, please follow up and I'll do the same.

[mikeseb]

To update everyone:

I started over, printed both High Quality (225 patches) and Extended Grays charts on Moab Kayenta, double checking all settings, from within the PFP application. Made profiles of just HQ alone, and HQ plus EG (supposed to allow for smoother gray tonalities--my primary reason for buying PFP!) Both, when "soft proofed" on the app's test image within PFP at the end of the profile-making process, looked fine. Soft proofing with the profiles from within PS also looked good. However, the EG chart has AGAIN a marked gray/green cast as printed.

I then made 3 prints of each of two images, a monochrome and a B&W, on Kayenta, each via ImagePrint (my "reference standard") and via Photoshop using both the HQ and the HQ+EG profiles. In both cases the IP prints were perfect; but using my profiles, the images had a gray/green color shift, just as always; it was about the same between both profiles, maybe a slight bit worse with the HQ+EG profiles.

I'm at my wits' end here. I even updated the Epson driver to the latest for my printer to be sure this wasn't the problem. There are few choices available within PFP when it comes to printing; the only thing you have to set are printer driver settings, and I made damn sure to disable color management. As someone said, it ain't THAT hard to disable.

What a frustrating waste of time and paper.

About all that remains to be checked is the spectro itself, but that seems less likely--you can just look at the printed chart--at least the Extended Grays--and see it's profoundly green/gray shifted. This is just inexplicable to me.

[KeithR]

To update everyone:

I started over, printed both High Quality (225 patches) and Extended Grays charts on Moab Kayenta, double checking all settings, from within the PFP application. Made profiles of just HQ alone, and HQ plus EG (supposed to allow for smoother gray tonalities--my primary reason for buying PFP!) Both, when "soft proofed" on the app's test image within PFP at the end of the profile-making process, looked fine. Soft proofing with the profiles from within PS also looked good. However, the EG chart has AGAIN a marked gray/green cast as printed.

I then made 3 prints of each of two images, a monochrome and a B&W, on Kayenta, each via ImagePrint (my "reference standard") and via Photoshop using both the HQ and the HQ+EG profiles. In both cases the IP prints were perfect; but using my profiles, the images had a gray/green color shift, just as always; it was about the same between both profiles, maybe a slight bit worse with the HQ+EG profiles.

I'm at my wits' end here. I even updated the Epson driver to the latest for my printer to be sure this wasn't the problem. There are few choices available within PFP when it comes to printing; the only thing you have to set are printer driver settings, and I made damn sure to disable color management. As someone said, it ain't THAT hard to disable.

What a frustrating waste of time and paper.

About all that remains to be checked is the spectro itself, but that seems less likely--you can just look at the printed chart--at least the Extended Grays--and see it's profoundly green/gray shifted. This is just inexplicable to me.
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Mike,

I also use the PFP and printed out the targets as required, but not until I had read a posting by Dave Miller on the ColorVision forum on Yahoo. Soon after v2.0 came out with the included Extended Gray targets, the documentation on how to get a reading with the EG target was vague so Mr Miller who works for ColorVision, wrote a supplement on how to do it. It can be found at:
[a href=\"http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvision_group/message/1637]http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvi...up/message/1637[/url]
As the instructions state, you should print through PFP to get the targets. But following the supplement helped out in getting a correct profile made.

[mikeseb]

Mike,

I also use the PFP and printed out the targets as required....
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Keith, thanks for responding. I've looked at those instructions, and as far as i can tell I have done exactly as they direct.

Something is obviously wrong with the appearance of the Extended Grays target as it is printed out, and less obviously, with the High Quality (225? patches) color target, causing a green/gray cast that looks for all the world like a print that has been "double" color managed (with CM on in both printing app and print driver), though that's not happening to the best of my knowledge.

So I'm stumped for now. Sitting on a high-dollar piece of soft- and hardware that is doing nothing for me **whine, whine**, hoping for a flash of inspiration.

thanks to all for trying to help a fella out.

[Osequis]

I don't have experience with PrintFixPro, but I think you have a conflict of CMs drivers, even if are supposely desactivated.

I suggest to create another user account in OSX and try to print login from there, or better, use another Mac (or PC) with no PS, LR or IP and only PrintFix.

If you still have bad prints then you will know where the problem is.

[digitaldog]

So I'm stumped for now. Sitting on a high-dollar piece of soft- and hardware that is doing nothing for me **whine, whine**, hoping for a flash of inspiration.

Well sort of. I have to say, I've heard similar reports of frustration from users of this product from time to time and I think in hindsight, a superior (more expensive) package like EyeOne Match would have been a better deal in the long run. Can you return the product? Can the dealer get involved? Is tech support washing their hands of all this? I don't have nor have I used PrintFix but I know some users working with odd ink sets have had issues where those using a true Spectrophotometer haven't. I think its the instrument but I'm not sure what they're doing. David Miller who often helps folks out on DP Review is usually very effective and helpful (he's datacolor tech).

[mikeseb]

Can you return the product? Can the dealer get involved? Is tech support washing their hands of all this?...David Miller who often helps folks out on DP Review is usually very effective and helpful (he's datacolor tech).
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David Miller has been trying diligently to help me, but the problem has been kicked to someone else; and my sense is that they are about ready to write me off.

One quote (NOT David Miller) was "no one ever promised gallery quality B&W prints from the 4000 using PFP, or any other Epson driver-based process...due to the lack of a second gray ink. That's why people use specialty inksets, or ImagePrint (sic) with the 4000...." Not sure what to make of that statement, since I've used either ImagePrint or QuadToneRIP for the gallery-quality B&W prints I've made on my 4000 and exhibited and sold in galleries; since I've made gallery-quality B&W prints from canned profiles for the 4000; and since David himself has made "gallery-quality" B&W images on his own 4000 (hope I'm not misquoting him here) using PFP profiles he made. The above quote has the creaking sound of mooring lines being loosened prior to the longboat's being set adrift.  

 In fact, I'm not too sure now why I decided I needed to do my own profiling given that IP and QTR were working well for all except one or two papers--not surprising with the UC inkset and photo-black-ink papers. If I manage to return or sell the software / hardware, I'll either stick with IP or QTR, or go with the Gretag-Macbeth products should I decide to revisit profiling later on. Obviously others have had success with PrintFIX Pro, so I don't think there is anything wrong with the software or hardware from ColorVision. It's hard to believe I'm the first doofus to have this (likely laughably simple) glitch arise, so I'm bewildered that a solution has been elusive.

Awaiting word whether the dealer will accept a return--a reputable online dealer with whom I've worked before, but whose general policy is not to accept returns on opened software. In the future, however, it's likely to be Amazon for me, since they are much more accomodating with returns.

I don't have experience with PrintFixPro, but I think you have a conflict of CMs drivers, even if are supposely desactivated....I suggest to create another user account in OSX and try to print login from there, or better, use another Mac (or PC) with no PS, LR or IP and only PrintFix.

Osequis, I completely agree this is the likely problem; I've just not been able to find out WHERE it is happening. I'll try your user-account suggestions, and report back.

I am sincerely grateful to all here who have tried to help out.

[digitaldog]

In fact, I'm not too sure now why I decided I needed to do my own profiling given that IP and QTR were working well for all except one or two papers--not surprising with the UC inkset and photo-black-ink papers.

Obviously others have had success with PrintFIX Pro, so I don't think there is anything wrong with the software or hardware from ColorVision.

I'd agree that the vast majority of users get good results. Its when some odd ink mix is used that it often falls apart. I think this might have something to do with their instrument which, despite it's name isn't a true Spectrophotometer and I think needs to have some pre determined info about the ink set.

[mikeseb]

Still no joy. Created a new Mac user account and printed from within PFP in that account--same problem of gray/green shifted Extended Grays charts.

And I'm using the regular old Ultrachrome ink set that's standard for the Epson 4000.

All ink cartridges are in the correct slots! (thanks Debra!!  )

It was suggested by ColorVision that I try to print the test images after building profiles to see what they look like; and to measure the calibration patch as a check on the spectro function.

At this point I've blown hours I can ill afford on this project, so next step, assuming my vendor won't accept a return, is to put the equipment and software up for sale and move on.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance!

[cariarer]

Hi Mike,

the only thing I can think of is that you have a faulty spectrometer. I believe it uses colored LED's or something like that for reading. Maybe one LED (or color source) isn't working?!? That would explain your problems. I would try to get a different one and re-profile one of your already printed targets. If this still does not fix the issue, you should probably return it.

Kind regards, Marco...

[dgillilan]

Still no joy. Created a new Mac user account and printed from within PFP in that account--same problem of gray/green shifted Extended Grays charts.

And I'm using the regular old Ultrachrome ink set that's standard for the Epson 4000.

All ink cartridges are in the correct slots! (thanks Debra!!  )

It was suggested by ColorVision that I try to print the test images after building profiles to see what they look like; and to measure the calibration patch as a check on the spectro function.

At this point I've blown hours I can ill afford on this project, so next step, assuming my vendor won't accept a return, is to put the equipment and software up for sale and move on.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance!
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Mike,
Very sorry to hear that nothing has worked yet to correct the problem. Marco may be right, in that your unit could be defective.  I am so sorry. I do have the PrintFix Pro unit and mine seems to be OK(just pointing out that it could be the specific unit you have and not the model in general, which of course can happen to any mfr of items).  I know it must be very frustrating to waste all that time.  Another poster also had a good point - may be time to try the Eye one unit, if you want to get into profiling, and see if that unit works for you !
Good luck, sorry we all could not solve the issue, Debra

[mikeseb]

THanks again, folks. I've sent in some files to Tech Support containing measurements of my spectro's calibration patch--this to get an idea if the spectro is defective. If it proves not to be, then the whole shebang is either going back to the vendor (currently trying to decide if they'll accept its return) or going up for sale. Look for it here in a few days--any takers?

I'm sure it will work well for someone else--it just hasn't worked for me.

I'll stick with ImagePrint for now; anyway, I'm looking hard at the new HP printers in 24", and if so wouldn't need separate profiling software/hardware. I'll likely dedicate my Epson 4000 to Piezography inks and QuadToneRIP B&W printing in that case.

[mikeseb]

Just a follow up for those of you kind enough to offer assistance.

The software vendor from whom I purchased ColorVision has agreed to accept the hardware/software package's return, ending my saga.

As I said, I think I'll stick with ImagePrint, QuadToneRIP, and canned profiles for now; if they won't hold me, then I'll plunk down for the more-expensive--but apparently more useful--Gretag-Macbeth profiling product. Cheaper is not always better, I should know by now--although again, I'm sure others have had fine results with ColorVision.

Now if only my wife could understand that I need that HP Z3100 printer! Just like I need that D300...that P45+...that 200-400VR...that winning lottery ticket....

Thanks again for all of your help.