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Author Topic: Learn to use your camera!  (Read 11907 times)

santhony

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 12:38:40 pm »

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That's a bit contradictory as by exerting control is how you usually express your creative idea. Otherwise it's a bit of a crap shoot as to how the image will turn out. Unless that is your creative idea.

My point about control was that there is more to an image (at least in my images) than what is controled by the dials.  Whether I'm at f/5.6 or f/8 isn't going to make or break one of my photos.  


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Why not get it right in the fist place. It usually saves time and effort. Which if you were lazy in an intelligent way, you would realise is actually easier than relying on fixing in post.

Indeed.  That is one of my goals.  But my primary goal is to get the shot.  If you spend too much time messing with the controls you can miss fleeting moments.
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santhony

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 12:46:07 pm »

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In our business it's a question of time allocation.  Photshop manipulation is ex-budget unless by prior agreement.  "Shoot now and Photoshop later" is a fair mantra if the extra computer time fits your circumstances or your budget, but it's a formula for unbudgeted and uncompensated hours in a photography business run on the clock.  I suspect that even in fine art photography where income is generated exclusively through print sales, time in front of the computer can impinge on time available to be out following your muse.  If Photoshop is a part of your creative process, then by all means it's valid to rely on it to make up for lapses in camera technique and technology.  But ultimately reliance on Photoshop is a choice between hours in the field and hours at the computer.
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I price my work with post processing in mind (for portraits).  It's not really an issue for shoots in my studio where I can control the lighting.  But location shots can be a different story, especially with kids as they run around a lot across varied lighting conditions.  I like to capture kids' spontaneity.  So I've got to take what presents itself much of the time.
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djgarcia

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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2007, 05:23:02 pm »

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The problem with exposure compensation is that you don't always know which of the controls it's compensating with.
Unless you have a badly design camera, the control it's compensating is the one the camera can vary on that mode. By choosing Aperture-preferred, the comp is done on the shutter speed. Conversely, when choosing shutter-speed-preferred the comp system will vary the aperture.

So if you're shooting speed-sensitive stuff, choose shutter-speed preferred, and if you want control over depth of field, e.g. landscapes, then choose aperture-preferred.

Again, this is a viable option over manual that gives you excellent control while retaining automation. If you prefer manual, no problem too. But you still need to be familiar with the exposure system, unless you're using an external meter or a rule of thumb.

Know your camera and you'll do well, whatever your choice ...
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djgarcia

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 05:28:18 pm »

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But my primary goal is to get the shot.  If you spend too much time messing with the controls you can miss fleeting moments.
Indeed. But the main reason for getting experience especially in the beginning is to let the "messing with the controls" become second nature so you don't really think about it during the shooting. But I totally agree, catching the moment is priority one. We just want to make sure the catching is printable and showable (is that even a word?)
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Kevin W Smith

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 06:42:36 pm »

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Unless you have a badly design camera, the control it's compensating is the one the camera can vary on that mode. By choosing Aperture-preferred, the comp is done on the shutter speed. Conversely, when choosing shutter-speed-preferred the comp system will vary the aperture.

So if you're shooting speed-sensitive stuff, choose shutter-speed preferred, and if you want control over depth of field, e.g. landscapes, then choose aperture-preferred.

Again, this is a viable option over manual that gives you excellent control while retaining automation. If you prefer manual, no problem too. But you still need to be familiar with the exposure system, unless you're using an external meter or a rule of thumb.

Know your camera and you'll do well, whatever your choice ...
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Sure, if you're in aperture or shutter priority, EC is going to change the other one. But what's going to change in auto mode, and what's going to change when there's a flash involved? That varies by camera, and you may or may not have many options to choose from.

FWIW, a common habit of mine is to frame a scene in aperture priority, then lock in those settings in manual mode. Prevents the camera from freaking out if a glint of bright light enters the scene, or trying to expose for some shadow areas I don't care about as I move with or around the subject in otherwise consistent light.

Anyway, unless you know your system well you won't -always- know what exposure compensation is doing. That was my point - you have to know your system to know what EC is doing. Do you know how all of your cameras handle flash in shutter priority without cracking the manual? Hint: some will allow you to select a speed past the synch speed and some won't.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 06:55:22 pm by Kevin W Smith »
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santhony

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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2007, 01:37:50 am »

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Sure, if you're in aperture or shutter priority, EC is going to change the other one. But what's going to change in auto mode, and what's going to change when there's a flash involved? That varies by camera, and you may or may not have many options to choose from.

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Auto mode does not accept EC, if memory serves.  On my 5D, I believe that in Program mode will step up or down through the program--adjusting shutter speed and aperture in turn.
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madmanchan

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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2007, 10:34:28 am »

In terms of (auto) exposure modes, I think it would be cool to have an automatic "expose to the right" mode. Perhaps there could be some tolerance (via a custom func) that says how many highlights pixels (or what percentage of highlight pixels) are allowed to be clipped. This wouldn't be suitable for all types of shooting, but for some of my landscape work it would definitely make things easier. We almost have it now with Live View + live histogram.
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2007, 11:54:04 am »

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In terms of (auto) exposure modes, I think it would be cool to have an automatic "expose to the right" mode. Perhaps there could be some tolerance (via a custom func) that says how many highlights pixels (or what percentage of highlight pixels) are allowed to be clipped. This wouldn't be suitable for all types of shooting, but for some of my landscape work it would definitely make things easier. We almost have it now with Live View + live histogram.
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That is a feature I'd be willing to pay for. I expect to keep my 5D for quite a while, but if an upgrade came out with the "expose to the right" mode, I'd jump for it. Especially if it also included sensor-cleaning and maybe a mirror-lock-up button.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2007, 01:48:18 pm »

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In terms of (auto) exposure modes, I think it would be cool to have an automatic "expose to the right" mode. Perhaps there could be some tolerance (via a custom func) that says how many highlights pixels (or what percentage of highlight pixels) are allowed to be clipped. This wouldn't be suitable for all types of shooting, but for some of my landscape work it would definitely make things easier. We almost have it now with Live View + live histogram.
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This concept is one I love to see.  Current cameras metering systems appear designed to produce satisfactory jpegs.

I personally wish I could set exposure by finding exactly what setting would max out any sensors on the chip ... perhaps something similar to live view where the mirror pops up and it actually reads the data hitting the sensor to determine "max exposure" without blowing any highlights.

Obviously you still have the opportunity to control the exposure, but now have the "optimum" exposure for the scene in front of you to render out a RAW image.
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Kevin W Smith

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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2007, 02:54:37 pm »

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Auto mode does not accept EC, if memory serves.  On my 5D, I believe that in Program mode will step up or down through the program--adjusting shutter speed and aperture in turn.
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Again it depends on the camera. On my D200, using EC in program (auto) changes both the shutter and the aperture. If I'm trying to overexpose, it stops at the lens's minimum aperture then opens up the shutter more.

FWIW, it won't allow me to go past 1/250th with the built in flash in shutter priority, but will with an on-camera flash that supports FP (high speed sync) mode.

Also, FWIW, it always "exposes to the right" in low contrast situations, will allow some specular clipping, but closes down to hold large highlights.
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nemophoto

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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2007, 03:11:15 pm »

Back to the original comment, that it's not necessary to know how to manual expose an image with today's digital cameras. . . .huh??

Virtually every image I take is exposed manually. I can can count on one hand the number of shoots, on location, I've used auto exposure. (Often, it's when light changes so rapidly, my assistant can't get a reading long enough for me to change the camera, so I give up and resort to auto -- with very mixed results.) And needless to say, studio shoots are ALWAYS manual. The only time I use auto is if I'm traveling and shooting for myself and I feel lazy. But I still often override the camera's "suggested" exposure.

Perhaps I'm one of those archaic photogs who believes one SHOULD know how to use the equipment, SHOULD know how to work with the images on the computer, SHOULD know more than my assistants, and doesn't believe that just because there are now digital cameras, one is a photographer. I've had a few clients think they could now shoot things themselves because they just bought a new digital camera. Why would they feel they are any better at photography with digital than with film? Usually a few months go by and they give me a call, "Hey, can you do a shoot for us?". As the world turns. . .
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djgarcia

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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2007, 03:41:30 pm »

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Why would they feel they are any better at photography with digital than with film?
The same basic tennets pretty much apply - just change "know thy film" to "know thy sensor". And of course the "know thy camera" still applies  ...
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Kevin W Smith

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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2007, 11:54:01 pm »

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The same basic tennets pretty much apply - just change "know thy film" to "know thy sensor". And of course the "know thy camera" still applies  ...
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Right, or as I tell people, the only thing digital changed is that it replaced film. Everything else is -exactly- the same (except for printing of course, but that's another topic), which is to say that you still need to know the same technical stuff about exposure, shutter speed, lighting etc. as you did with a film camera.

BTW, just to raise an obvious point, but modern film SLR's already automated most of this stuff pretty darn well a long time ago. Nikon's matrix metering, DX film, etc. made it easy for non-photographers to get perfectly great film images long before digital.

So in the grand scheme of things, nothing much has changed except that a novice can now meet or beat 35mm film quality with a $1000 camera and lens. Big deal.

 Kevin
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madmanchan

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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2007, 09:28:54 am »

Kind of. Due to the (near) linear response of sensors, as opposed to the decidedly non-linear response of film, there are some technical differences between how digital and film work underneath in terms of optimal data representation. Sure, the basic concepts of aperture, shutter, ISO, etc. still apply (with the exception of reciprocity failure, perhaps). But for those wishing to really optimize the capture quality, there are enough significant differences that the rest of the system needs to be tweaked as well -- from lenses to auto-exposure modes.
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djgarcia

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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2007, 11:26:43 am »

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Kind of. Due to the (near) linear response of sensors, as opposed to the decidedly non-linear response of film, there are some technical differences between how digital and film work underneath in terms of optimal data representation. Sure, the basic concepts of aperture, shutter, ISO, etc. still apply (with the exception of reciprocity failure, perhaps). But for those wishing to really optimize the capture quality, there are enough significant differences that the rest of the system needs to be tweaked as well -- from lenses to auto-exposure modes.
Indeed, know thy sensor! But I reminisce that when exposing film I would "expose to the left" for diapositives to get better saturation, whereas I would "expose to the right" for negs for the same reason, how much depending on the characteristics of the particular film, e.g. Fuji Reala had a very noticeably wider dynamic range than say, Kodak 400. Similarly how much you may expose a digital camera to the right should depend on the characteristics of the particular sensor. And obviously in all cases you take the attributes of the image being recorded into the equation.
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Kevin W Smith

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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2007, 03:32:54 pm »

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Kind of. Due to the (near) linear response of sensors, as opposed to the decidedly non-linear response of film, there are some technical differences between how digital and film work underneath in terms of optimal data representation. Sure, the basic concepts of aperture, shutter, ISO, etc. still apply (with the exception of reciprocity failure, perhaps). But for those wishing to really optimize the capture quality, there are enough significant differences that the rest of the system needs to be tweaked as well -- from lenses to auto-exposure modes.
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Of course, but it's just a matter of adjusting what you know, vs. learning everything from scratch. It's more like learning the characteristics of a new film emulsion than re-thinking the wheel.
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Hank

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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2007, 10:36:24 am »

With this conversation in mind I performed an experiment yesterday.  My wife and I were contracted for a very high dollar wedding involving 12 hours of shooting from noon to midnight in three locations:  A clifftop meadow overlooking the ocean and surrounded by mountains; the seaside grounds and indoors of a winery; and very large white tents with both windows and artificial lighting.  The wedding party was dressed in the usual mix of very subtle (and expensive) shades of white, black tuxes and midtones.

The cermony was conducted looking out over the brightly sunlit sea with subjects ranging from fully backlit to side lit or frontally lit, depending on our location.  Leading up to that we shot formals with subjects partially frontlit to take advantage of the background scenes.  Everything else was shot from constantly changing lighting angles depending on our changing locations and the movement of the action.

At the winery it was much the same but in and out of the shadows from the structures and large trees, with the light and lighting changing dramatically according to subjects, location and shooting angles.  Over the course of the tent shooting, the balance of sunlight from the windows and artificial light changed by the minute and hour, as did shooting angles and subjects.

In all locations we augmented as required with camera mounted flash, remote flash, and full light kits, filtering the cameras as needed while also filtering all three varieties of strobes, as well as managing white balance.  In essense it was an evolving mix of scenic or landscape shooting, action shooting, and studio style shooting.  

As time permitted I switched my cameras from manual to program mode for comparative shooting, mostly to see if I was making too much of the question in my own mind.  Why work so hard if I could do a good job while letting the cameras make the decisions?

We did a preliminary run through of my shots last night, but I didn't tell my wife that programmed shots were in the mix.  She observerd "Boy, you really blew it on some of your stuff.  What the heck was going on?"

Offending or failing images were shot on program, most typically with strong or partial backlighting, in direct sunlight with strong shadows, and late in the evening when whole scenes were in shadow but the sky was still bright.  Some shots were "useable" but by no means professional, and certainly not without considerable photoshop work.  "Action" shots were okay and some were quite good, especially with direct and uniform frontal lighting, provided I successfully compensated (+/-) for the range of tones in the scene.  Frankly, in that fast-moving circumstance it would be a relief to rely more on programmed shooting, but I would have to preselect my shooting position relative to backgrounds and lighting angles and preset my compensation setting depending upon subjects.

I've seen the results of weddings shot in these same locations by photographers using programmed settings.  I've also talked to their very unhappy clients- one of whom even demanded (and got) a full refund from the photographer in question.  Without seeing my wife's shots yet, I'm confident that we're going to have some very happy clients while further augmenting our reputation and justifying our high fees compared to other local shooters.  In fact, I'm likely to suggest to my wife that we once again raise our rates because additional weddings are going to result, even as the program shooters have lost business and reputation over their results.

And what about Photoshopping the "okay" images that resulted from my experiments with programmed shooting?  We garnered just over 64gb of images on the shoot.  If only 10% needed Photoshopping, we'd have to forego several well-paying shoots over the next few days to accomplish the task.  I'd rather make money than clean up mistakes, I think.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 10:40:54 am by Hank »
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djgarcia

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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2007, 11:17:04 am »

OK, maybe I'm out on a limb here, but am I the only one who believes there are other alternatives between fully manual shooting, where the user has to select both aperture and shutter speed, and fully programmed automation?

Aperture or Shutter-Speed Preferred modes are still automation but let one choose preserving depth of field or motion-catching, and the use of controls such as exposure lock and compensation provide control on the fly while still being in the ballpark for a reasonable exposure. I do mostly landscape and travel, much of it on a tripod, and have never used fully programmed and seldom resort to manual.

Admitedly, if you're using an external meter, and / or if you're shooting lots of shots at the same critical light levels, then manual is the way to go, but where there are changing subjects and varying light levels, there are very effective alternatives between the two extremes ...
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Hank

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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2007, 11:32:43 am »

I don't think you're on a limb at all.  A and S settings are just other versions of programmed shooting which let you choose which variable stays the same while the other adjusts according to the dictates of the camera's meter and programming.  

In that light, they're very useful tools to have in a kit for use when needed.  I frequently select one or the other over the "straight" P setting when circumstances dictate or allow use of programmed shooting.  I often use A settings for example, with zoom lenses having variable apertures simply to better manage DOF when programmed shooting is dictated.

The point in my often lengthy and pointed diatribes (sorry!) is that programmed shooting is not always going to give you the results you expect, and in fact is seldom the "best" answer.  To rely on it to the exclusion of learning manual skills will cost you, whether in terms of missed opportunities or loss of income and repuation.  It's a matter of expectations- whether simply your own or those of clients.
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Rob C

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« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2007, 12:44:47 pm »

And that, Hank, as we´ve both already discovered, is the difference in attitude between pro and amateur.

Rob C

PS  Not seen any homecoming queens yet!
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