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Author Topic: P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?  (Read 16408 times)

Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2007, 09:05:47 pm »

This evening I've been studying the web site of Cambo and I'm starting to think I should abandon the notion that I must have lens board tilt to get the depth of field that I'm after in my landscape work.  

Looking at the Cambo site, and conveniently an article on Arch. work in todays RAW news from Phase One, has me rethinking the approach I was pondering.

Looks like a Cambo SWD with 35mm lens gets exceptional depth of field.

Anyone have experience with this one for landscape work?

Jack

Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 04:46:57 pm »

For those who are pondering the same question of which camera body, I'm attached an Excel spreadsheet where I tried to gather some of the issues in a logic format.

Corrections, additions, etc. are appreciated.

Best,
Jack

I've tried three times to "Add this attachement".  It indicates that the file was added but it does not appear.  

Any suggestions?  It's in standard Excel format.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 07:46:52 pm by Lust4Life »
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eronald

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2007, 05:14:26 pm »

Quote
For those who are pondering the same question of which camera body, I'm attached an Excel spreadsheet where I tried to gather some of the issues in a logic format.

Corrections, additions, etc. are appreciated.

Best,
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The attachment is not visible -

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Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2007, 07:53:50 pm »

Here is an attempt at cut/paste from Excel:


Camera Body      Advantages      Value to me         Disadvantages   

Alpa 12SW-35mm      Vertical Shift - 25 mm      Adaquite                         Very limited Vertical Shift   
                      Horizontal Shift - None!              Major disadvantage      No Horizontal Shift   
      Tilt:  None            No Tilt!   
      Full Geared Operation      Yes      
      Body Weight:  770 gramms or 1.7#   Excellent   
      Body Size:  w: 180mm/ 7.1 inches, h: 120mm/4.72 inches , d: 47mm/1.85 inches                  

Cambo WDS 35   Vertical Shift-+40/-20mm                   Excellent   
      Horizontal Shift-+20/-20mm      Excellent   
      Tilt:  None            No Tilt!   
      Full Geared Operation      Yes      
      Body Weight:  4.2#            
      Body Size:  w: 8.5 inches, h: 8.5 inches , d: 4.75 inch               

Arca Rm3d      Vertical Shift-15mm                     Not much                              Unknown device no one has used/seen!
      Horizontal Shift-20mm                  Excellent         Not currently available
      Tilt: +/_ 5 degrees                     Excellent         reliable delivery date!
      Full Geared Operation                       ?   
      Body Weight:  900 gramm or 1.984#          Excellent   
      Body Size:  w: 160mm/6.3 inches, h: 160mm/6.3 inches , d: 25mm/1inch               

Alpa XY-35mm   Vertical Shift - 70 mm                      Good         Cost!  Dealer would have to be negotiable!
      Horizontal Shift - 50 mm      Better   
      Full Geared Operation      Yes      
      Body Weight:  2600 gramm or 5.73#        Negative but weight of 35mm Schneider could be much less that Hassie 40CFE IF
      Body Size:  w: 220mm/8.7 inches, h: 290mm/11.42 inches , d: 40mm/1.58 inches               


Arca Misura   Vertical Shift-78mm                      Excellent   
      Horizontal Shift-70mm      Excellent   
      Tilt: Orbix +/ 15 degrees      Excellent   
      Full Geared Operation      yes   
      Body Weight:  2.65 gramm or 5.84#   Heavy!!!
      Body Size:  w: 18cm/ 7.0 inches, h: 20cm/7.87 inches , d: 24cm/9.45inch

micek

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 03:48:54 am »

Quote
Here is an attempt at cut/paste from Excel:
Camera Body  Advantages  Value to me     Disadvantages   

Alpa 12SW-35mm  Vertical Shift - 25 mm  Adaquite                   Very limited Vertical Shift   
                  Horizontal Shift - None!          Major disadvantage  No Horizontal Shift   
  Tilt:  None    No Tilt!   
  Full Geared Operation  Yes 
  Body Weight:  770 gramms or 1.7#   Excellent   
  Body Size:  w: 180mm/ 7.1 inches, h: 120mm/4.72 inches , d: 47mm/1.85 inches     

Cambo WDS 35   Vertical Shift-+40/-20mm                 Excellent   
  Horizontal Shift-+20/-20mm  Excellent   
  Tilt:  None    No Tilt!   
  Full Geared Operation  Yes 
  Body Weight:  4.2#   
  Body Size:  w: 8.5 inches, h: 8.5 inches , d: 4.75 inch       

Arca Rm3d  Vertical Shift-15mm                 Not much                        Unknown device no one has used/seen!
  Horizontal Shift-20mm                Excellent     Not currently available
  Tilt: +/_ 5 degrees                 Excellent     reliable delivery date!
  Full Geared Operation                   ?   
  Body Weight:  900 gramm or 1.984#          Excellent   
  Body Size:  w: 160mm/6.3 inches, h: 160mm/6.3 inches , d: 25mm/1inch       

Alpa XY-35mm   Vertical Shift - 70 mm                  Good     Cost!  Dealer would have to be negotiable!
  Horizontal Shift - 50 mm  Better   
  Full Geared Operation  Yes 
  Body Weight:  2600 gramm or 5.73#    Negative but weight of 35mm Schneider could be much less that Hassie 40CFE IF
  Body Size:  w: 220mm/8.7 inches, h: 290mm/11.42 inches , d: 40mm/1.58 inches       
Arca Misura   Vertical Shift-78mm                  Excellent   
  Horizontal Shift-70mm  Excellent   
  Tilt: Orbix +/ 15 degrees  Excellent   
  Full Geared Operation  yes   
  Body Weight:  2.65 gramm or 5.84#   Heavy!!!
  Body Size:  w: 18cm/ 7.0 inches, h: 20cm/7.87 inches , d: 24cm/9.45inch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Adrian check  Silvestri's S5 micron:
30 + 30mm vertical shift, 30 + 30mm horizontal shift, 15º tilt and swing. Weight: 4Kg (ouch).
Also, sometime in September Fotoman's Dmax should become available: no tilt or swing, but 25mm vertical and horizontal shift in what doesn't seem to be an especially large body.
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Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2007, 07:13:11 am »

"Adrian check Silvestri's S5 micron:
30 + 30mm vertical shift, 30 + 30mm horizontal shift, 15º tilt and swing. Weight: 4Kg (ouch).
Also, sometime in September Fotoman's Dmax should become available: no tilt or swing, but 25mm vertical and horizontal shift in what doesn't seem to be an especially large body. "

FOUR KILOS!!!  NOT on my back hiking along mountain trails!
Key is to get the feature sets I originally defined without breaking the mules back (me).

Jack

mcrepsej

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 11:12:26 am »

Hi Lust4life.

I do have a P45+ and a Cambo with Schneider 35 Digitar. It's a great camera.
I do a lot off shots with to horizontal shots stitched +/- 15 mm or 3 shot horizontal with the DB in "potrait" -15/0/+15mm. That makes some nice files ;-)
When using the 24 and 35 mm digital you need a centerfilter.

McRepsej
Denmark
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Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 01:59:49 pm »

Quote
Hi Lust4life.

I do have a P45+ and a Cambo with Schneider 35 Digitar. It's a great camera.
I do a lot off shots with to horizontal shots stitched +/- 15 mm or 3 shot horizontal with the DB in "potrait" -15/0/+15mm. That makes some nice files ;-)
When using the 24 and 35 mm digital you need a centerfilter.

McRepsej
Denmark
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Are you finding that you can get near to far in excellent focus without having "tilt"?
Doing any landscape work?

Thanks,
Jack

mcrepsej

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 03:06:03 pm »

Hi Jack.

With landscape I don't have any problems. At F16 from about 2 meter and to far it's sharp. On monday you will get a link with some files.

McRepsej
Denmark
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Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2007, 07:23:00 am »

Quote
Hi Jack.

With landscape I don't have any problems. At F16 from about 2 meter and to far it's sharp. On monday you will get a link with some files.

McRepsej
Denmark
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McRepsej,
Looking forward to getting the link.

What lenses do you suggest for landscape work?

I'm thinking of the 35 mm, remotely the 28, but would also like something longer as well.

With the Hasselblad 503cw and P45+ my normal lens is the 40CFE and on occasion the 100 CFI.  Have the 150 but almost never use it - need to get around to selling it and my Hassie Flexbody to help fund the purchase of the Cambo WDS.

Examples of my work can be found at my web site to give you an idea of what I do:  [a href=\"http://www.shadowsdancing.com]My Webpage[/url].  

For Pano images I use the Really Right Stuff Pano kit - works great.  I frequently stitch two rows of 7 frame/row together.  Will be curious to see if the Cambo shifts give me enough to do my Pano work and leave the RRS gear at home - doubt it.

Best,
Jack

sc_john

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2007, 09:53:17 am »

Jack,

Here's a link to a shareware program for calculating DOF for various types of digital cameras, film formats and various lens lengths.... including P45: http://www.stegmann.dk/mikkel/barnack/

I use a P45 with a Digitar 35, and find the results of calculator to be reliable. However, rather than use a circle of confusion of 0.03mm which would be typical for 35mm film, I use coc of 0.014mm, which is approximately 2 pixels. With this coc, Digitar 35 DOF calculates to be 9' to infinity at f/16 (hyperfocal distance of 18') and DOF of 13' to infinity at f11 (hyperfocal distance of 26'). I would also note that, to my eye, there is a very slight fall-of in sharpness from f/11 to f/16 with the Digitar 35, as it is optimizted at f/8 to f/11. There is a very noticeable fall off in sharpness from f/16 to f/22.

John
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mcrepsej

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2007, 04:01:36 pm »

Hi.

A link to a single shot from a Cambo DS Wide, PhaseOne P45 and Schneider 35 Digitar with centerfilter.

www.iversenfoto.dk/z/CF004943.zip

McRepsej
Denmark
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hubell

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2007, 07:02:17 pm »

Quote
Jack,

Here's a link to a shareware program for calculating DOF for various types of digital cameras, film formats and various lens lengths.... including P45: http://www.stegmann.dk/mikkel/barnack/

I use a P45 with a Digitar 35, and find the results of calculator to be reliable. However, rather than use a circle of confusion of 0.03mm which would be typical for 35mm film, I use coc of 0.014mm, which is approximately 2 pixels. With this coc, Digitar 35 DOF calculates to be 9' to infinity at f/16 (hyperfocal distance of 18') and DOF of 13' to infinity at f11 (hyperfocal distance of 26'). I would also note that, to my eye, there is a very slight fall-of in sharpness from f/11 to f/16 with the Digitar 35, as it is optimizted at f/8 to f/11. There is a very noticeable fall off in sharpness from f/16 to f/22.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138021\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is there a Mac based equivalent to this little program for calculating DOF?

Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2007, 07:06:52 am »

Quote
Hi.

A link to a single shot from a Cambo DS Wide, PhaseOne P45 and Schneider 35 Digitar with centerfilter.

www.iversenfoto.dk/z/CF004943.zip

McRepsej
Denmark
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Thank you!

That effect is what I'm after - sharp focus from near to far - can you tell me what f stop you used, and did you use Hyperfocal for focusing?

Do you find the center filter to be essential on the Schneider 35mm or can CS3 do the job just as well?  I hate to give up two stops if I can do it in CS3.

I have decided to go with the Cambo and the 35mm lens.  Pondering a second lens -- ideal is to have this as my sole camera for all of my landscape work and not have to lug two different cameras around.  With the Hassie I use the 40mm about 90% of the time and the 100mm the remaining time.  Have yet to use the 150 that I have.

Thus, the 35 should be about right to replace the Hassie 40.  Guess the 90 would do the same for the 100 I have.  With this I'll sell off all of my Hassie gear.  

Yesterday I was able to see a Cambo with 24 Schneider lens - it's weight was 5.75 pounds with cable, P45+ back, lens, ready to shoot.  Figure the 35mm weight will be similar.

Jack
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 07:10:22 am by Lust4Life »
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mcrepsej

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2007, 02:12:16 pm »

Hi Jack.

I have used a f-stop between 11 and 16 and have used the hyperfocal for focusing.

Try without the centerfilter but you will found it necessary.

About the 24mm. Offcourse it could be fine with such a wide lens but there is allmost no rice and fall. With the 35mm you can stitch 2 horizontal shot to a panorama. At all I think you can use a lot more.

McRepsej
Denmark
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JeffKohn

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2007, 06:11:08 pm »

Quote
Jack,

Here's a link to a shareware program for calculating DOF for various types of digital cameras, film formats and various lens lengths.... including P45: http://www.stegmann.dk/mikkel/barnack/

I use a P45 with a Digitar 35, and find the results of calculator to be reliable. However, rather than use a circle of confusion of 0.03mm which would be typical for 35mm film, I use coc of 0.014mm, which is approximately 2 pixels. With this coc, Digitar 35 DOF calculates to be 9' to infinity at f/16 (hyperfocal distance of 18') and DOF of 13' to infinity at f11 (hyperfocal distance of 26'). I would also note that, to my eye, there is a very slight fall-of in sharpness from f/11 to f/16 with the Digitar 35, as it is optimizted at f/8 to f/11. There is a very noticeable fall off in sharpness from f/16 to f/22.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138021\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Those DOF numbers would definitely be a problem for me, and tell me that I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether a MFDB system without tilt capability would work for me.

If I'm not mistaken 35mm on 645 MDFB is roughly equiv to 17mm on my D2x. At 17mm I usually have something in the composition a lot closer than 9 feet. I _might_ be able to live with that if that were the only focal length I were using. But probably a good half of my shots are in the 28-70mm range on APS-C, which would be roughtly 50-140mm with the MFDB. Even at f/16-f/22 those focal lengths are going to give me DOF problems especially on the longer end.
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Morgan_Moore

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2007, 01:43:59 am »

Quote
Those DOF numbers would definitely be a problem for me, and tell me that I'm going to have to think long and hard about whether a MFDB system without tilt capability would work for me.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139638\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont know how much your subjects move but here is an off the wall thought...

A multishot 11mp sensor has 35mm perspective and 33mp quality ?

Even a camera with a smaller sensor like the Aptus17 ?? will give files that beat any DSLR and can be used in conjuntion with nikon lenses like the 85TS and also like the hartblei super rotators or solutions from Mr zoerk

All in a non bellows package on bodies like the horseman digiflex or capturgroup nikon thingy

Also there is a harblei (TS 35) lens for mamiya cameras

S

S
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david.westphal

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2007, 01:09:18 pm »

Hello all,

Just my 2 cents here but I have been shooting with the Silvestri Bicam II for three months now.  It is an amazing camera.  Before purchasing this camera, I had shot with the Cambo Wide DS, the Alpa camera and looked at the Horseman version.  I came out with choosing the Silvestri for these reasons:

1.  Up to 47mm, the helical mount lenses working quickly and perfectly.  Although I did have to send my camera with my 35mm back to the retailer for calibrations.  So be tenacious about testing your lenses when you get them to make sure everything has been calibrated correctly.  
2.  Larger than 47mm lenses, you can obtain a bayonet mount and use the maxi bellows attachment and use the camera as if it were a true view camera.  The only thing is that you do not have rear standard tilts and swings, but I don't recall really ever using them when I was shooting film.  The precision of focus on the maxi bellows is far superior to any traditional monorail view camera.  I shot with that camera and also with a toyo view camera and found a significant difference in focus from the toyo to the Silvestri.  So the ability to utilize the precision of large format optics to its fullest is possible with this camera system.
3.  The camera is compact and yet it's all metal.  The machining appears to be precise and feels solid.  
4.  This system has single shot and double shot sliding adapter for use.  I am currently using the single shot (the double shot is being made for H mount phase system).  It works very nice and if you have ever used the phase one adapter, you will be relieved at it's size and functionality.
5.  I have an analogue nikor 75mm that was okay to shoot with on my toyo.  Just to check it, I mounted it to my Slivestri.  Even that lens became an acceptable lens to shoot digitally with.  The ability of the camera to find the exact focus point was evident by this test.  Now, shooting with analogue lenses is not ideal, but if you have them, it at least saves some money in the short run with a precise camera system like this.  Which speaks to the value of this system.  If you already have lenses, you do not have to ditch them for helical mounted lenses.  You simply purchase the bayonet adapters, and you save some money.

So from my perspective, I would go for the Silvestri.  I think it is a great solution to update large format photography in a digital world.  I really cannot describe the joy I experienced to finally have moved beyond my traditional view camera that I shot film to a camera system that is precisely engineered and thus made for digital photography.


David
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Lust4Life

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P-45Plus - Best body for tilt/shift landscape?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2007, 04:17:01 pm »

To all the folks that offered their suggestions on this topic, Thank You.  I appreciate the input.

I have decided that for my current needs the following is what I've ordered:
Cambo Compact with 35 and 90mm Schneider lenses, viewfinder, and the Schneider center filter for 35mm Digitar lens.

I've also ordered the Cambo WDS body to use the above lenses on for the occasions when I want movement.

To date, I've received the Compact, viewfinder and the 90mm lens.  Balance will hopefully be here in a week or two.

Logic is:
The Compact unit will be excellent for just roaming the streets/woods and gathering images - of course must "guesstimate" the focal point distance.  

The Compact is very light for my hiking into situations where rise/fall/shift are not needed - which frankly for my landscape work is most of the time.

The WDS will be used strictly for hiking or scenes where rise/fall/shift are needed.

In short, I'm hoping that the combo of the two bodies will provide two methods for me to create images.  Frankly, I'm hoping the Compact will be able to meet most of my needs as I like it's small size and weight.  

Time will tell if I find a need for a lens between the 35mm and the 90mm.  I've hear the 47mm is an exceptional lens but I'll wait to see if it's a focal lenght I'll need when in the field shooting.

Again, thanks to all for your comments.
Best,
Jack
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