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Author Topic: Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement  (Read 3821 times)

Brad_Stiritz

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« on: August 23, 2007, 09:01:35 pm »

Hi everyone,

Thanks, Michael R, for the great preview report on the upcoming Epson '80 printer series - 4880 / 7880 / 9880 / 11880. Personally, I'd been looking forward to the next generation since an Epson USA tech told me months ago that the next gen was going to be "huge", and going to "take over everything". Now I realize he was probably hinting strictly about the 11880.

Did anyone else read Michael's postings and feel let down at finding out the 4880 / 7880 / 9880 will all continue to be 8-color printers that require ink cartridge swap-out to go from MK to PK and v-v?

I was so looking forward to stepping up from my 4800 to whatever model would replace the 9800, and I was definitely assuming the replacement would be 9-color. I guess I let my expectations get too high. I mean, all the head & nozzle improvements sound great, no doubt. But this MK / PK nozzle issue is now going into its third generation, if I'm not mistaken (e.g. 4000 / 4800 / 4880). Isn't this completely absurd?

Michael R, I've really enjoyed reading your various analyses of the market economics and business realities that photo equipment manufacturers face. Would you please consider weighing in with a deep analysis of the choices that Epson's been making here?  I just feel kind of dismayed, and have so many questions running through my mind, like:

* Hasn't it been at least a couple of years since Epson started getting serious pushback about PK / MK? The 4800 started shipping in June 2005.

* Why didn't Epson start designing the 4880 et al, back in 2005, for nine inks? The 3800 clearly shows that Epson got the message, customers don't want to swap out inks.

* Isn't the form factor for the 4880 pretty identical to the prior-generation 4800 and 4000 printers? Is that what this PK / MK thing is really about -- the fact that Epson is reusing the same 8-ink form factor(s) (at least for the 4880) that they introduced in Jan 2004 for the 4000 et al, four years prior to the expected release of the '80 series??

* Epson's capital budget can't really be such that they didn't have the money to tool up new form factors for these printers (?) Surely there were no design or manufacturing interdependencies affecting the printer form factor, that the '80 series project didn't have the budget to deal with (?) This doesn't seem like a credible possibility at all.

* Obviously, Epson's R & D branch is exceptionally well-staffed and well-funded. Clearly Epson understands the return they get on the R & D dollars, and indeed the steady, important improvements in ink & head technology just keep coming year after year. So if we compare all the evolution on that front with the lack of evolution in the basic printer form factor, what does this say? I guess, presumably that it was good business not to go to 9 inks across the board in the new generation, right?

* So we're to understand that it made sense to Epson to go to 9 inks for the 3800, the entry-level pro printer, and for the 11880, the highest-end printer. Just not for the in-between pro printers! Did an Epson MBA someone crunch some kind of global optimization study across the line, and find that they could save $500K on dev and manufacture by reusing the old form factors? In that case, doesn't it seem like a decent competitive market analysis would have trumped the cost-savings study?

Any help understanding this situation greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Brad
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 09:03:25 pm by Brad_Stiritz »
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Brad Stiritz
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claskin

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 10:02:58 pm »

Quote
* So we're to understand that it made sense to Epson to go to 9 inks for the 3800, the entry-level pro printer, and for the 11880, the highest-end printer. Just not for the in-between pro printers! Did an Epson MBA someone crunch some kind of global optimization study across the line, and find that they could save $500K on dev and manufacture by reusing the old form factors? In that case, doesn't it seem like a decent competitive market analysis would have trumped the cost-savings study?

Any help understanding this situation greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Brad
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FWIW, I agree with your position. If Epson has managed to significantly improve the gamut with the vivid magenta and what I think is the improvement in the pigment encapsulation leading to an increase in saturation, then it truly is anti-climactic to re-issue the old form factor leaving the ink swap error in place. I was also waiting for Epson's answer to HP and Canon. Their response is almost good but is like a half-eaten carrot dangling in front of our noses. I am disappointed but I will wait for the "formal" announcement and I still look forward to the early impressions of the new series.

Carl
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Geoff Wittig

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 10:04:41 pm »

As an amateur with no inside information at all, I am in total agreement. The illustrious Jeff Schewe took no prisoners in a previous thread on this issue, arguing that we peons just didn't understand manufacturing realities and should be happy with what we get. If Epson sells 90% of their large format printers to service providers and large print shops where economically it makes sense to have 2 identical machines side by side, one loaded with PK and one with MK, then I can understand their ignoring us. I presume Epson's bean-counters crunched the numbers and decided it wasn't worth addressing this problem.

On the other hand, for enthusiasts on a household budget, the black ink swap issue is an absolute deal-breaker. I loved the results I got with my Epson 7600 on cotton rag papers, but hated being locked into that æsthetic because of the absurd cost of swapping inks. This is precisely what drove me to buy a Z3100 instead of another Epson when it was time to upgrage. The lukewarm improvements promised by the "new" 7880 make me feel even better about the decision.
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John Hollenberg

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 10:54:00 pm »

I have come to the conclusion that Epson will probably have the largest gamut with the Vivid Magenta inkset (see Joe Holmes link on front page describing 11880 experience in detail).  Likely they will have the most useful gamut as well, at least based on softproofs of my images using the K3 vs Canon Lucia ink profiles for Epson Premium Luster.  The Canon with 12 inks has the same gamut volume on Epson Premium Luster as the K3 inkset (within 0.5%, per Colorthink Pro), and Joe Holmes says the Vivid Magenta is about 7.6% larger than the K3 inks.  

Due to these improvements, plus apparent improvements in clogging (at least per Epson 3800 reports), I would be strongly tempted to buy a 7880 when they come out.  However the lack of matte and photo black inks available simultaneously means I will be sitting out this generation of Epsons.  A real pity.

--John
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 10:54:38 pm by John Hollenberg »
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Wayne Fox

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 01:22:50 am »

Dang, isn't this poor horse dead yet?  We really need another thread about this.
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BernardLanguillier

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 01:53:00 am »

Quote
Any help understanding this situation greatly appreciated!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"We" have all been wondering for months how they can be that blind.

The only rationnal explanation is the our "we" is not significant for Epson and that there is a more important "they" for whom the current specs are OK.

The "they" could be large customers buying tens of printers at once for parallel operation for instance.

Cheers,
Bernard

neil snape

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 04:03:11 am »

I haven't yet read any of the hints on the new Epson line up.
There are notions of gamut volume that don't fit into image quality. I am very aware of the changes that can be had with a different magenta, which is proven with the Canon and new Epson inksets.
Yet green and green blues that print realistically are more about image quality than any numeric statistics counting in gamut volume will ever show.
Last year when shooting some very colorful rings for Lalique, I printed on Epson and HP. The Epson K3 just couldn't get close to the blues that the rings are whereas the HP nailed the colors, and the Canon iP5000 was closer in this respect.
Since Epson already have/had the time necessary to develop a great inkset,  they need to have more primaries to walk away from their new serious competition. In one way it's good that they didn't launch printers with additional primaries, as it leaves time for HP and Canon to improve their printers within a not so large of IQ differences to the new Epson inkset.
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John Hollenberg

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2007, 10:48:42 am »

Quote
There are notions of gamut volume that don't fit into image quality. I am very aware of the changes that can be had with a different magenta, which is proven with the Canon and new Epson inksets.   Yet green and green blues that print realistically are more about image quality than any numeric statistics counting in gamut volume will ever show.

I agree, but found that when softproofing my landscape images the Epson K3 inkset has beaten the Canon Lucia inks (this on Epson Premium Luster) every single time.  Thus for my uses, the K3 inks have a more useful gamut.  The differences were mainly noted in the very saturated and fairly high luminance orange and yellow (e.g., wildflowers), but also in some of the darker blues/slightly blue-green of water in a Sierra Lake and darker greens of foliage in moderate shadow (to my surprise).  

--John
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neil snape

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2007, 11:14:05 am »

Quote
I agree, but found that when softproofing my landscape images the Epson K3 inkset has beaten the Canon Lucia inks (this on Epson Premium Luster) every single time.  Thus for my uses, the K3 inks have a more useful gamut.  The differences were mainly noted in the very saturated and fairly high luminance orange and yellow (e.g., wildflowers), but also in some of the darker blues/slightly blue-green of water in a Sierra Lake and darker greens of foliage in moderate shadow (to my surprise). 

--John
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I use soft proofing for comparing profiles, yet for many years of making profiles with Profile Maker there are some flaws that may or may not show up in the return leg of the profile, meanwhile the print can be extraordinarily good. that said I do find the generation of profiles more reliable on Epson than any other printers for what reasons I'm less certain about.
The screening and dithering make a lot of difference. If the new Epson driver is going to work as well as it can with 16 bit, for the time being the gamut matched to the screening will be a continued tradition in fine printing that will be the mark regardless of gamut volume. What I meant is that Epson already have the quality, yet if they added primaries they would or could have substantially raised the bar irreversibly.
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John Hollenberg

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Disappointed by Epson '80 series announcement
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2007, 12:30:14 pm »

Neil,

Thanks for clarifications and additional food for thought.  Unfortunately, I can't compare actual prints because I gave my Epson 2400 to a friend.

--John
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