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Author Topic: Capture Sharpening with LR  (Read 12147 times)

Hendrik

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« on: August 23, 2007, 02:06:47 AM »

I always did (and still do) my sharpening in PS using the Photokit Sharpener plugin. I like the output.

Since the update of LR to 1.1 you see more and more people using LR to apply the first sharpening, the Capture Sharpening. I have read the article of Martin Evening and I understand the controls. … but I still have difficulties with some aspects.

I have always believed that the screen is unsuitable for judging the sharpness. An LCD screen renders the image different then an CRT for example. This was the reason the Photokit Sharpener plugin was created to begin with, based on experience and research and not on eyeballing. It seems we’re back again and eyeballing is the new approach.


My question, how do I know I applied the correct amount of sharpness (Capture Sharpening)?

… and second, maybe more important, what settings in LR corresponds with the presets in Photokit for SuperFine Edge Sharpen,  Narrow Edge Sharpen, Medium Edge Sharpen and Wide Edge Sharpen. Let’s even forget the different type of input file.

I think doing Capture Sharpening inside LR can simplify my workflow, reducing the amount of mistakes.
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Schewe

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 02:26:38 AM »

Quote
… and second, maybe more important, what settings in LR corresponds with the presets in Photokit for SuperFine Edge Sharpen,  Narrow Edge Sharpen, Medium Edge Sharpen and Wide Edge Sharpen. Let’s even forget the different type of input file.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

First, what I'm doing is judging an image at 100% and getting it "right" on an LCD. Not over sharpeneed, not under sharpened, but just "right" at 100%. I don't "sharpen for effect" or try to do "output sharpening", just get the image to look like I think it should at 100%.

See: [a href=\"http://photoshopnews.com/2007/05/31/about-camera-raw-41/]About Camera Raw 4.1[/url]

As to your second, that's a bit more difficult...Lightroom ships with two presets that Camera Raw doesn't have; Portrait and Landscape (generally based on 10-16MP capture).

Landscape (which is pretty much Narrow Edge)
Ammount: 40
Radius: .8
Detail: 50
Masking: 0

Portrait (which is pretty much Wide Edge)
Amount: 35
Radius: 1.2
Detail: 20
Masking: 70

As for the inbetween or Super Fine, you're kinda on your own.
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Hendrik

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 03:56:15 PM »

I use a CRT screen, any differences? I’m still not happy with eyeballing.  

I think the presets can give a good start. This is how PhotoKit works also.

The other presets can be guessed of course:

Medium Edge:
Amount: 37
Radius 1.0
Detail 35
Masking 40

SuperFine Edge:
Amount 45
Radius 0.5
Detail 80
Masking 0

Maybe others have done some testing and have other and better recipes? I mainly do fashion and portraiture.
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trops

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 09:22:56 PM »

Haven't been able to find these two sharpening presets. Where are they?  
John
-------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Schewe,Aug 23 2007, 06:26 AM

As to your second, that's a bit more difficult...Lightroom ships with two presets that Camera Raw doesn't have; Portrait and Landscape (generally based on 10-16MP capture).

Landscape (which is pretty much Narrow Edge)

Portrait (which is pretty much Wide Edge)
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trops

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 09:49:16 PM »

Sorry pls ignore found them in the long list - overlooked the first time

Quote from: trops,Aug 24 2007, 01:22 AM
Haven't been able to find these two sharpening presets. Where are they?  
John
-------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Schewe,Aug 23 2007, 06:26 AM

As to your second, that's a bit more difficult...Lightroom ships with two presets that Camera Raw doesn't have; Portrait and Landscape (generally based on 10-16MP capture).

Landscape (which is pretty much Narrow Edge)

Portrait (which is pretty much Wide Edge)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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genemcc

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2007, 11:22:43 PM »

Here's a zip with the four LR presets outlined above in a folder called PKS Capture Sharpening.  Just unzip and drop it in your presets folder.  All four will then be in one place.

 
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reyn_two

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2007, 06:21:21 AM »

It seems whatever I try to download the PKS_Capture_Sharpening.zip all I get is an index.php. Any tips appreciated.
Thanks
Frank
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francois

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2007, 09:34:29 AM »

Quote
It seems whatever I try to download the PKS_Capture_Sharpening.zip all I get is an index.php. Any tips appreciated.
Thanks
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136720\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Frank,
Unzip the index.php file (add .zip -->  index.php.zip or index.zip) and you'll find a folder with all four presets.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 09:38:01 AM by francois »
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Francois

genemcc

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2007, 09:51:54 AM »

Francois is correct.  There must be a bug somewhere in the forum software upload feature that is renaming the file either on the way up or on the way back down.  Luckily, the preset files contained within are intact.
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reyn_two

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2007, 02:36:08 PM »

Thank you.
Frank
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FDewannieux

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2007, 07:37:23 PM »

Quote
First, what I'm doing is judging an image at 100% and getting it "right" on an LCD. Not over sharpened, not under sharpened, but just "right" at 100%. I don't "sharpen for effect" or try to do "output sharpening", just get the image to look like I think it should at 100%.

This is the part that I don't quite get. When I use PKS for input sharpening, the image does not look "right" at 100%, it only starts to look "right" on the screen if I apply the output sharpening for the screen after the input sharpening. Andrew explained this in my question in this other thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....095&hl=leica+m8
It seems that the PKS input sharpening is not supposed to look "right" when the file is viewed at 100% in Photoshop but that the proper way to apply input sharpening in Lightroom is to make it look "right" under the same conditions. Or is it that the output sharpening methods have to be quite different with the two approaches, in which case the LR 1.1 new input sharpening will require a different output sharpening than the existing PKS one ?
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digitaldog

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2007, 12:03:28 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, while the capture sharpening is greatly improved in 1.1, its still asking you to visually apply the controls and as someone here mentioned, he's using a CRT while someone on an LCD with the same image might apply a totally different set of renderings (within reason). That's still the advantage of PhotoKit Sharpener, you don't have to worry about this, just pick the right settings and let it go. Capture sharpening is suppsoed to be subtle, and one can produce good results (some may say better) doing it in LR once you get the hang of what will work best visually. But there's still an issue in visibly sharpening an image IMHO. For one, we tend to over sharpen because as we lower the settings, what we see is a less sharp appearing image. Our visual system finds this disconcerting (the image looks like its getting softer, which it is), so our tendency is to crank up the settings. Now there's only so far you can go in LR say compared to using USM!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 12:03:57 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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Giedo

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2007, 03:32:12 PM »

Quote
Here's a zip with the four LR presets outlined above in a folder called PKS Capture Sharpening.  Just unzip and drop it in your presets folder.  All four will then be in one place.

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds great! But... where do I find the presets folder. I can only find one for Photoshop, but not such a folder for Lighroom (I'm on a Mac running LR 1.1)

Thx, Giedo
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Giedo

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2007, 04:19:25 PM »

Quote
Sounds great! But... where do I find the presets folder. I can only find one for Photoshop, but not such a folder for Lighroom (I'm on a Mac running LR 1.1)

Thx, Giedo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137096\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's in ~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Lightroom

There are a number of preset folders in there -- dump the PKS Capture Sharpening folder in the "Develop Presets" folder, restart LR, and voila.

sniper

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 04:14:46 AM »

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It's in ~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Lightroom

There are a number of preset folders in there -- dump the PKS Capture Sharpening folder in the "Develop Presets" folder, restart LR, and voila.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where do I find it in Windows XP?        Thanks  Wayne
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Hendrik

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 07:30:18 AM »

Quote
As far as I'm concerned, while the capture sharpening is greatly improved in 1.1, its still asking you to visually apply the controls and as someone here mentioned, he's using a CRT while someone on an LCD with the same image might apply a totally different set of renderings (within reason). That's still the advantage of PhotoKit Sharpener, you don't have to worry about this, just pick the right settings and let it go. Capture sharpening is suppsoed to be subtle, and one can produce good results (some may say better) doing it in LR once you get the hang of what will work best visually. But there's still an issue in visibly sharpening an image IMHO. For one, we tend to over sharpen because as we lower the settings, what we see is a less sharp appearing image. Our visual system finds this disconcerting (the image looks like its getting softer, which it is), so our tendency is to crank up the settings. Now there's only so far you can go in LR say compared to using USM!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is exactly my point. I don't know if it's possible to make presets for LR that can be run without any visual input, does the Photokit plug-in works the same as LR?

... at this moment I convert my files without sharpening and apply all sharpening with the Photokit plug-in inside PS. It always gave me good results. Maybe we see a good review or article about this subject in the future.

@genemcc, I haven't downloaded them, but can you give some insights on how you made these ... on eye?
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wolfnowl

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 01:30:31 PM »

Quote
Where do I find it in Windows XP?

Something like this:
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Application Data\Adobe\Lightroom\Develop Presets

Mike
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sniper

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 01:42:14 PM »

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Something like this:
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Application Data\Adobe\Lightroom\Develop Presets

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137266\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks a lot Mike.  Wayne
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genemcc

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 07:12:24 AM »

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@genemcc, I haven't downloaded them, but can you give some insights on how you made these ... on eye?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I simply took the settings further up this thread from you and Jeff, applied each one in turn saving a preset with the appropriate name.  The presets merely adjust the sharpening sliders to the amounts indicated by you and Jeff.  I just thought it was convenient to have them in presets rather than copy the numbers and plug them in manually.  
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Hendrik

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Capture Sharpening with LR
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2007, 08:00:31 AM »

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I simply took the settings further up this thread from you and Jeff, applied each one in turn saving a preset with the appropriate name.  The presets merely adjust the sharpening sliders to the amounts indicated by you and Jeff.  I just thought it was convenient to have them in presets rather than copy the numbers and plug them in manually. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137427\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ok, but understand I only made my suggestion up without any testing and I already changed the settings a bit. I decided that the unsharpened image getting their first sharpening in PS with PhotoKit Sharpener is a safer and for me more familiar route.  
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