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Author Topic: out gassing  (Read 11622 times)

PeterDendrinos

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out gassing
« on: August 21, 2007, 08:26:10 am »

I apologize up front, i am sure this has been covered, but i cant get the search function to work on this site.

I am printing with an Epson 7800 with their standard ink set. I am experiencing out gassing in my framed prints. I have tried the paper over the print technique to speed absorption of the moisture, but still get the problem. I simply cant wait weeks for ambient drying, there isn't time in my work flow.

The question is, has a better, faster way been found to dry the print so it can be framed and not gas out? Perhaps a fan?

Thanks for the input.

Pete
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John R Smith

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out gassing
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2007, 09:01:46 am »

Peter

how about good old Ansel's method of using a microwave oven to speed-dry his prints? Here in my damp Cornish cottage I suppose I might use our airing-cupboard to speed things up. Having said that, so far I have had no problem with the K3 inkset outgassing, but I always leave my prints up on a pinboard for at laest a week before they get put to bed.

Best regards

John
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 09:02:24 am by John R Smith »
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Bruce Watson

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out gassing
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2007, 10:57:32 am »

Quote
The question is, has a better, faster way been found to dry the print so it can be framed and not gas out? Perhaps a fan?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Outgassing is caused by the slow evaporation of glycols and glycerins from the ink carrier. Ever seen how long it takes for an antifreeze spill to evaporate? Ethylene glycol is one of the components of both antifreeze and most pigment inks.

Only two things get them to leave the paper faster. Heat and air movement. I use a handheld hair dryer, and have gone from printing to framed and on the wall in less than an hour. Hung in the sun, no evidence of outgassing. Before using the hairdryer I had outgassing even if the print "aired out" for a week or more.
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Lisa Nikodym

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out gassing
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2007, 11:44:40 am »

Some papers produce much worse outgassing problems than others.  I've done a moderate amount of experimentation with various papers (several years ago) iwth my 2200 and found that Epson glossy & semi-gloss papers were about the worst for outgassing.  I typically wait an hour for the ink to dry, then put plain paper on it for about a week, then frame it, but there's still significant outgassing (despite Epson's claim that this prevents it, it doesn't - they're in a state of denial).  Many third-party papers have much less severe outgassing than Epson's, however.  I ended up choosing Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss, which still has a little bit of outgassing, but not enough to be a problem (and less than other papers I tested), and much less than Epson's.  (They also make a Smooth Pearl paper which is probably similar outgassing-wise.)

Lisa
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blansky

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out gassing
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 12:35:29 pm »

Since I'm fairly new to the digital realm and print with a 7800, I would suspect that since I drymount my work, the heat from that would " dry" the print to stop the outgassing to some degree.

Is this a logical deduction since one person posted using a hair dryer?


Michael
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Nill Toulme

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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2007, 12:59:12 pm »

Bruce, exactly how and for how long do you hit the prints with the hair dryer?

Nill
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Avalan

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out gassing
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 01:05:43 pm »

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PeterDendrinos

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out gassing
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2007, 04:52:38 pm »

Quote
Outgassing is caused by the slow evaporation of glycols and glycerins from the ink carrier. Ever seen how long it takes for an antifreeze spill to evaporate? Ethylene glycol is one of the components of both antifreeze and most pigment inks.

Only two things get them to leave the paper faster. Heat and air movement. I use a handheld hair dryer, and have gone from printing to framed and on the wall in less than an hour. Hung in the sun, no evidence of outgassing. Before using the hairdryer I had outgassing even if the print "aired out" for a week or more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


A hair dryer? the prints i am having problems with are typically 24x32 or so. Do you think i could employ your technique on that large of a print? I am about to purchase a 9800, i will need to "process" those the same way. Perhaps 2 hair dryers!

Can you please elaborate on the specific technique a bit. How long do you dry them, how do you know you have gotten it all.

Pete
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Lisa Nikodym

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out gassing
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2007, 05:51:46 pm »

Quote
There are some info inthe following links:

http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/019/...ming%20Tips.pdf

http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/2004...gasstorage.html

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Epson "cure" for the problem (putting plain paper on it for 24 hours) doesn't do it.  It may help a bit, but it doesn't completely solve it by a long shot.  (Epson has a history of offering "solutions" to their printers' problems that don't work - just look back at the cyan fading issue with their old dye printers some years back.)  I've left a print for a full month with several rounds of fresh plain paper to cover it, and it still perceptibly fogged up the glass in a clip frame within a week or two.  That's what made me give up on Epson papers and go to third-party papers.

Of course, I probably notice it more than most people because I often use clip frames, which will make outgassing much more obvious than frames with a separation between the print and the glass, since you can see the sharp dividing line in the "fog" between the print's light areas and dark areas.

I haven't tried a hair dryer or other accelerated-heating process.  Perhaps I'll give it a try sometime...

Lisa
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 05:52:28 pm by nniko »
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Charles Gast

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out gassing
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2007, 07:17:41 pm »

I have used the hair dryer too but only on quicky snapshot prints.  I had some prints framed at an art show. After the show I had a print laying face up in the sun for about 15 minutes as I boxed them up. The glass got condensate on it where the summer sun was hitting it. When I took the framed print out of the box an hour later the condensate was gone. This was water, not glycol from the ink. If it had been glycol it would not have evaporated so fast leaving the glass clear with no trace.  I wonder how many of these outgassing experiences are just moisture condensing on the glass due to direct sunlight instead of glycol.

Charlie
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PeterDendrinos

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out gassing
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 06:50:59 am »

Quote
I have used the hair dryer too but only on quicky snapshot prints.  I had some prints framed at an art show. After the show I had a print laying face up in the sun for about 15 minutes as I boxed them up. The glass got condensate on it where the summer sun was hitting it. When I took the framed print out of the box an hour later the condensate was gone. This was water, not glycol from the ink. If it had been glycol it would not have evaporated so fast leaving the glass clear with no trace.  I wonder how many of these outgassing experiences are just moisture condensing on the glass due to direct sunlight instead of glycol.

Charlie
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I have seen both happen in a print that has been exposed to the sun several times. I do lots of art shows. It never fails that the sun beats down on one of these large prints. But it's the evaporating glycol that causes me the most trouble.

Perhaps a drying cabinet is in order. Does Jobo still make and sell their film drying products?

P
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thierryd

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out gassing
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 07:35:53 am »

Is there the same trouble with outgassing and the Vivera inks (HP Z )?
With Epson inks, color change visually a bit after the printing and not with the HP inks. I don't know if it's enough to escape to the outgassing malediction    
Has someone noticed outgassing with Z2100 or Z2300 ?  I don't put glass on my print, so my experiment is not relevant.
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madmanchan

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out gassing
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 08:45:17 am »

thierry, which Epson inks are referring to? The K3 ones, I assume? My experience is that short-term drift ends after about 1/2 hour, and even then the drift is relatively minor.
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Eric Chan

Charles Gast

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out gassing
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 09:37:49 am »

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But it's the evaporating glycol that causes me the most trouble.
P
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So when you say glycol causes you the most trouble are you saying that the condensate on the glass does not go away or leaves a trace after it evaporates?
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thierryd

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out gassing
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 09:51:18 am »

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thierry, which Epson inks are referring to? The K3 ones, I assume? My experience is that short-term drift ends after about 1/2 hour, and even then the drift is relatively minor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134773\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With my Epson 4000 I waited 24 hours before profiling the target even if 12 hours would have been probably enough. The drift was rather obvious, specially on black and white.
 The Z3100 print and profile the target in the same process. A bit suspicious at the begining, I made some test reprofiling the same targets 24 hours later. The profiles were identical.
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PeterDendrinos

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out gassing
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 11:14:20 am »

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So when you say glycol causes you the most trouble are you saying that the condensate on the glass does not go away or leaves a trace after it evaporates?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ya i am saying that the glycol fogs the glass in proportion to the density of ink on the print. and it stays there until i break the frame apart and clean the glass.

I have occasionally seen water vapor "condensate" form on the glass when the sun hits it, but that typically goes away on it's own.

P
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Avalan

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out gassing
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2007, 12:13:00 pm »

This is from  "Mastering digital printing -second edition"  by Harald Johnson / page 280 :

"High"-volume printmakers solve the obvious space problem associated with drying by using commercial print-dtying racks , sometimes in combination with forced-air heating system. These can be expensive new , but they can sometimes be picked up used from screenprinters."
Also there is a picture of commercial drying-racks included in page 280.

I found the following discussion in another forum about using hair driers:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IXkB&tag=
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madmanchan

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out gassing
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2007, 12:15:46 pm »

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With my Epson 4000 I waited 24 hours before profiling the target even if 12 hours would have been probably enough. The drift was rather obvious, specially on black and white.
 The Z3100 print and profile the target in the same process. A bit suspicious at the begining, I made some test reprofiling the same targets 24 hours later. The profiles were identical.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gotcha. The drift on the newer K3 inks has been reduced ... wouldn't say it's immediately settled, though.
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Eric Chan

Bruce Watson

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out gassing
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2007, 01:47:11 pm »

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Bruce, exactly how and for how long do you hit the prints with the hair dryer?

Nill
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Low heat, high fan. Hold the hair dryer in one hand, put the other hand behind the print. Work the hair dryer back and forth, slowly, over the print where it's held by your hand. You'll feel the print go through a couple of stages. First it will heat up and feel sort of damp. Then it will almost flash to feeling dry.

Increment across the print like this. A 19x13 inch print takes me a minute or so. Just long enough to get boring  
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Lisa Nikodym

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out gassing
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2007, 01:57:52 pm »

Quote
Low heat, high fan. Hold the hair dryer in one hand, put the other hand behind the print. Work the hair dryer back and forth, slowly, over the print where it's held by your hand. You'll feel the print go through a couple of stages. First it will heat up and feel sort of damp. Then it will almost flash to feeling dry.

Just to make sure we're on the same wavelength:  The hair dryer doesn't just cause the water in the ink to evaporate faster, thus drying the ink in a minute instead of an hour, but also takes care of the slowly-evaporating glycol (permanent glass-fogging) problem???

Lisa
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