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Author Topic: IPF6100 vs Z3100  (Read 19071 times)

John Hollenberg

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 07:29:37 pm »

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Graph expo 2007 news. Seems like the new IPF6100 is getting some kind Mistubishi software bundle. The article says it comes standard. Is this new for the IPF6100 and IPF5100?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My reading of the article is that the iPF6100 comes as part of the Mitsubishi Proofing Bundle, not the other way around.

--John
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arbito

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 07:33:27 pm »

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My reading of the article is that the iPF6100 comes as part of the Mitsubishi Proofing Bundle, not the other way around.

--John
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I re-read that again John and totaly understand now. Sorry bout that.
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Wayne Fox

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 08:38:31 pm »

6100's are hitting now.  Two local suppliers in Salt Lake which I visited the last 2 days both just recieved and are just setting up a 6100.  Inkjetart had the printer up and I saw the calibration pages laying there so I'm guessing they are getting close to making profiles for their illuminata paper.  Pictureline had there's assembeld and on the floor, but hadn't printed anything as of 9/12.

I'm not sure either company will review it, but guessing some of the better reviewers (such as Michael) have units and are in the process of working with the printer so they can write a meaningful review.  To me printers seem more problematic to review, since you really must create some new profies and print quite a few prints to have a meaningful comparison.

Canon sent our company (kiddiekandids.com) a unit for trade trial, we recieved it Monday.  I have been working with it, have it up and running.  I started another thread about this here, and will update with some new information tomorrow.

So it appears that despite the fact this printer was "shipping" two months ago it really is just getting into the channel now.

I'm not a reviewer and probably won't be dragging out the ipf5000 out of the closet to do some side by side comparisions, but I do have a few print tests I made with the printer when it was released then that might be somewhat revealing in the difference in the black inks as well as some other printing issues I had with the original 5000.  I think Michael's review, when it comes, will probaby offer the most meaningful comparison, since he has been working with the Canon printer for sometime now, and can directly compare things like the inks.
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scubastu

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2007, 03:13:33 pm »

I attended the Vancouver Edition of the Canon Expo and saw the iPF6100 and 8000 in action.  According to the rep there, the Canons do not have a spectrophotometer like the Z3100, they have a densiometer to monitor ink flow.   So, you cannot make your own profiles.  Plus the Z3100 upgrades for use with HP GL2.

I just ordered a Z3100 44" though my main use will be for CAD/Mapping applications, I got the APS as well due to a HP Canada Trade up offer for my old 36" CAD plotter.

Stu
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:16:07 pm by scubastu »
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Scott Martin

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2007, 07:12:33 pm »

For what it's worth it's been my observation that the iPF 5000, 8000 and 9000 inks are identical to the K3 inks in terms of bronzing and gloss differential when the 'advanced black and white' and 'monochrome photos' modes are used. The K3 inks exhibit slightly more color inconstancy (meaning the hue appears to turn magenta or green under different light sources).

The iPF 6100 inks show massive improvements in all respects. Black and white prints on Fine Art Pearl for example are extremely pleasant looking at any angle, are extremely neutral and have fantastic color constancy. I didn't realize how bad the previous inks were until I did this comparison.

The 6100 also has a new guide which helps align the paper when loading into the front (as necessary for extremely thick papers). Paper loading is improved and more successful on the 6100 too. Lots of nice little tweaks.

I also hear Canon has 5100s in the states ready to ship but is trying to hold off until the 5000s are gone. We'll see if they release the Universal Binary version of  Photoshop plug-in on the 15th as they estimated...
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Shutterbug2006

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2007, 07:49:48 pm »

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I just ordered a Z3100 44" though my main use will be for CAD/Mapping applications, I got the APS as well due to a HP Canada Trade up offer for my old 36" CAD plotter.

Stu
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh man. The original promotion was until August 31, reviewing the HP Canada website I see they have extended it until September 30.

That kind of ticks me off. I was waiting over 8 weeks on back-order for the 44" GP printer, and when I was called about a week before the rebate offer expired, and told the printer had arrived, I cancelled the order because I couldn't possibly get the paperwork completed on time to save the $3000 rebate they were offering for a 24" vinyl cutter trade-in.

Now I've got two weeks left in this extended promotion, and the printer is on back order again. $#@@#%R#$@!
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Wayne Fox

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 08:05:21 pm »

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The 6100 also has a new guide which helps align the paper when loading into the front (as necessary for extremely thick papers). Paper loading is improved and more successful on the 6100 too. Lots of nice little tweaks.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree paper loading is improved, but personally I think the front load slot is very weakly done, as is accessing it through the driver.  My basis for comparison is 24" and larger printers ... ipf 6100 vs  Epson 78xx series printers. (the same criticism doesn't apply if comparing desktop models, ipf5100 vs Epson 3800/48xx)  On the Epson all paper bascially has a straight through path, and loading a sheet of bond paper isn't any different than using poster board, so thick media is a non issue.

On the Canon you must use the front load slot (my current favorite paper is Museum Etching) With the Canon this more difficult than it should be, both in accessing it through the driver, as well as loading a sheet.  I spent some time with the Canon rep at Pictureline today because I couldn't even figure out how to do it right ... basically you have to set the printer to the POP paper setting, load the paper, then set the driver to use whatever the true paper type is.  I haven't tried that yet ... so far all I could get to work was using POP in both the driver and printer, but then I lose all control of ink densities etc. and can't optimzie my profile.  I won't be able to try this other way till Monday, but I assume it will work.  Not documented very well.

Loading a piece of paper is very strange ... pull up these 4 tabs, lift the printer top, insert the paper on top of the tabs, making sure to flip the little insert backwards so the aligment guide is available.  It was a little fight to keep that little insert from flipping back. Stick your hand in to get the paper under the little rollers,  shove it all the way back and line it up with the lines, shut the lid and hit OK.  In 4 tries I"m only 50/50 in not getting a skewing error ... maybe I'll get better.

Maybe an improvement, but far from easy.  This is definitely not a good printer for anyone that does a lot of manual feed thick stock.

That aside, everything else about the printer, including quality, I like very much.  I have yet to print some serious black and white, but on papers like Kodak Prof. Lustre, there is virtually no difference in gloss differential or metamerism. If you look VERY VERY hard you can find some very subtle differences, with both printers having some slight advantages in very selective types of scenes.

Hope to print some B&W first of next week.

I'm enjoying the printer so far ... much better experience than when I tried the ipf5000.
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Happyfish

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 06:16:18 pm »

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Jess -

I'm just wrapping up the review now, it'll be ready to post over the weekend. I do have the 6100 sitting alongside my Z3100. I'm reviewing it for Shutterbug and for Digital Journalist, but it's getting regular use as well.

Jon
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not sure if I missed the review ? but is it up and if so do you have a link to it
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nanjeca

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2007, 03:39:46 pm »

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Jess -

I'm just wrapping up the review now, it'll be ready to post over the weekend. I do have the 6100 sitting alongside my Z3100. I'm reviewing it for Shutterbug and for Digital Journalist, but it's getting regular use as well.

Jon
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Ho Jon

Have you had chance to finish this review yet and is it posted anywhere, I think there are lots of folks anxious to read your review

mike
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scubastu

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2007, 07:58:49 pm »

I ordered from Directdial.com and it's arriving on Friday, less than a week from when I ordered.  You may want to try them.

Stu

Quote
Oh man. The original promotion was until August 31, reviewing the HP Canada website I see they have extended it until September 30.

That kind of ticks me off. I was waiting over 8 weeks on back-order for the 44" GP printer, and when I was called about a week before the rebate offer expired, and told the printer had arrived, I cancelled the order because I couldn't possibly get the paperwork completed on time to save the $3000 rebate they were offering for a 24" vinyl cutter trade-in.

Now I've got two weeks left in this extended promotion, and the printer is on back order again. $#@@#%R#$@!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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jpgentry

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2007, 11:32:28 am »

Wow... reviews are hard to come by lately.  I've been reading about the lack of reviews on dpreview.com regarding all the new digital cameras from Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc.  Here you can't get a review on the 5100/6100.  

Maybe reviewers are getting tired?  Or maybe the quality and features of the digital process is getting so good that improvements are less interesting and reviews are less important?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 11:33:59 am by jpgentry »
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Scott Martin

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2007, 05:47:20 pm »

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Wow... reviews are hard to come by lately. Maybe reviewers are getting tired?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Getting paid next to nothing for an extensive review isn't very attractive for most that are in a position to do so. Little comments or "mini reviews" on threads like this one are pretty valuable. For what it's worth, I put a brief comparison of HP, Canon and Epson printers and their notable differences in my last newsletter. Email me at scott@on-sight.com and I'd be happy to send it to you.
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BernardLanguillier

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2007, 06:38:11 pm »

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Wow... reviews are hard to come by lately.  I've been reading about the lack of reviews on dpreview.com regarding all the new digital cameras from Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc.  Here you can't get a review on the 5100/6100. 

Maybe reviewers are getting tired?  Or maybe the quality and features of the digital process is getting so good that improvements are less interesting and reviews are less important?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

People might have realized that it takes time to produce a useful test of a new piece of equipment, one that buyers can rely on to form an opinion on the relevance of an expensive purchase. Printers are especially challenging here since everybody uses different papers and has different expectations in terms of colors etc...

I am personnally very tired of the "it's new it's great" kind of reviews found on many sites, only to discover a few weeks later, based on actual users feedback, that a major shortcoming has been overlooked.

Cheers,
Bernard

Wayne Fox

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2007, 11:51:03 pm »

I'll try to make this somewhat brief (hard for me to do, I yap too much).  If anyone would like more detail let me know.

The real question being asked here is a Canon ipf6100 vs. an HPz3100.   Canon sent me an ipf6100 about 10 days ago, and have enjoyed seeing what the printer can do.  I spent about 2 weeks with a 44" z3100 a couple of months ago, and currently own 2 Epson 3800's, a 4800, and a 9800.  I ordered the Epson 11880 immediately upon reading about it, and after examining prints made on the 11880, the 9880 and 9800 as well as Canon printers at photoshop world, I am excited about this new printer.  I also still have an ipf5000 Canon sent to me shortly before they were introduced and tested it for a few weeks back then.

So I'm sort of an Epson guy, but I've had a chance to play in depth with all of them. From that perspective I will say I believe the 6100 is an outstanding printer, and I'm getting gorgeous prints ... every bit as good as my 3800.  Not better mind you, but side by side it is incredibly difficult to find any difference, especially one significant enough to base a purchase decision on output quality alone. The new black inks do make a difference, and black and white prints I did on Museum Etching look really nice on both printers. I see less grain and smoother transition detail than I remember with the ipf5000.

My personal feeling is that I like the output from the Epson and the Canon better than the z3100.  The HP is a great printer, but I found it more challenging to maintain delicate transition details, and struggled with reds, especially rich reds. The gloss optimizer is nice if you do a lot of photo papers, but gloss differential and bronzing really isn't much of an issue for any of these printers now.

I mentioned a few days ago (I believe in this thread) about challenges using the front loading manual feed for thicker material on the ipf6100. I finally did figure it out and now I'll admit it isn't that bad, so my only criticism of the Canon ipf6100 is again in documentation (it shouldn't have been that hard to figure out).  The user interface for printing is still a struggle (let's be honest, printing interfaces should be better for all printers, but I think Canon is the worst of the 3). That being said, it is better than the ipf5000, and once you figure it out isn't an issue.

One final opinion when comparing the z3100 to the 6100 (or the Epsons for that matter) is in regards to the onboard eyeone and self profiling.  While I commend HP for the idea, and I know everyone is excited about it, I personally think profiling is going in a different direction.  The self-calibration of the new Canon printers seems insignificant, but in reality it is a big deal.  It puts them at a level that Epson seems to have achieved, especially with the 3800, that being the printers are very consistent.  It isn't that the printer is consistent with itself, it is consistent with other printers. Paper makers will be able to provide canned profiles that are equal to or better than you can make for yourself.  I believe the Canon is consistent enough that most of the good media out there will have canned profiles very quickly.  So it just doesn't seem to be worth the extra money to buy one in the printer.  5 years ago this would have been remarkable, but seems unnecessary now.

Please understand this printer may have issues that no one knows about ... it's too new.  So my comments are regarding output quality, not build quality.  It could very well be the roll feed system of the printer is flakey and a month or two from now the net will be full of people upset that they bought the printer based on what someone said. I will say the printer seems well built, and I had very little trouble loading paper with very few skewing errors, even with the front manual slot (once I finally figured how to use it with my preferred paper choices.) As far as build quality it isn't new, it is pretty much identical to the 6000, so instinct tells me it's going to be fine.  But no one knows right now, so if that worries you, I guess you can wait or look at other makers.

Finally I do have a couple of broad recommendations.  If you don't need roll feed, don't switch between photo blacks too often and only need a 17" printer, the Epson 3800 is a strong contender.  Beautiful quality, and I have 0 clogs in over 2 months between 2 printers.  If you need roll feed and need to switch blacks more than occasionally, the Canon would be my choice.  I've heard the new 80 series reduces the amount of ink it takes to swap, but it will still take  more than the Canon (which doesn't require any).  If you are the rare user that prints on heavy stock ... especially heavy roll stock, the straight through paper path design of the 7880 is something you should look at closely ... the Canon does present some challenges there.

sorry, guess that wasn't too brief, but I hope it may be somewhat helpful.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 12:11:16 am by Wayne Fox »
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claskin

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2007, 12:37:07 am »

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I'll try to make this somewhat brief (hard for me to do, I yap too much).  If anyone would like more detail let me know.


sorry, guess that wasn't too brief, but I hope it may be somewhat helpful.
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Wayne,
Thank you for the time and effort in posting some very rare and informative comments.
Carl
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Carl Laskin

thierryd

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IPF6100 vs Z3100
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2007, 03:58:33 am »

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The self-calibration of the new Canon printers seems insignificant, but in reality it is a big deal. It puts them at a level that Epson seems to have achieved, especially with the 3800, that being the printers are very consistent. It isn't that the printer is consistent with itself, it is consistent with other printers. Paper makers will be able to provide canned profiles that are equal to or better than you can make for yourself. I believe the Canon is consistent enough that most of the good media out there will have canned profiles very quickly. So it just doesn't seem to be worth the extra money to buy one in the printer.
You are right, but until now (I mean when Epson was alone on the professional market) profiles provided by paper makers were very poor and only Epson gave good profiles with his papers.
I suppose making a new paper is very expensive, so providing poor profiles to the consumers is stupid, but they done it before  
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neil snape

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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2007, 06:36:12 am »

Wayne ,
Great comments and it shows your careful detail in knowing about printing , the why's and how's of making a living from printing.

If I can add; calibration routines are more important for thermal heads than Piezo.

Why?
The nozzles are more prone to reductions in output which are seldom permanent in the beginning. The are going to change quite a bit and need more "watching" than Piezo.
In the end having thermal heads will eventually after you've made literally a ton of prints, you should change the print heads. This absolutely requires a calibration. As the life expectancy of Epson Piezo is longer than that of thermal heads it makes perfect sense to do so for HP and Canon.

I think you're right about profiling too. Nice to have but not essential. Calibration yes.
Where HP goes a long way is for spectral calibration, spectral validation,  and profiling with the better rips. At least in theory as I simply don't know where GMG, EFI , or Colorbus are with this, if it works etc.


One question though, does gloss uniformity still show a lot on the Canon compared to Epson on B&W and colour , glossy media?
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