Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???

[psp]

Patrick,

I think you are reading selectively, most people do aplaud most of the things Hasselblad does however some things are not well received.

The motive behind closing their system has nothing to do with bringing solutions or benefits to photographers. The same solutions and benefits will be there when they would provide open specifications or developer kits.

Actually an open system would potentially provide more solutions and benefits.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who's Patrick?

I disagree. An open system, as presently being described, can not provide as many potential benefits and in such a slick package as an integrated solution can. Again, think of a H1 with V lens, on a Phase/Leaf back, compared to an H3D.

Back to the original post then... if you need movements on medium format, there are presently solutions. View camera, Flex and Arc Hasselblad bodies... and I believe a t/s adaptor is available (I don't recall where, nor what bodies it fits). There may be other solutions... anyone?

Hasselblad is apparently also working on a solution, but nothing, as far as I know, has been announced. I would guess by Photokina 2008 there could possibly be something announced.

Fingers and toes crossed!

[samuel_js]

I understand the decision of making an integrated system. But does an integrated system has to be a closed system? NO. The only point of closing the system is to avoid people putting PhaseOne and other back in their hasselblads. This decision of closing the system has nothing to do with quality. There's a lot of people using open systems like Mamiya/h1-h2 with phaseone and this integrated super H3D is still not better.

[psp]

I understand the decision of making an integrated system. But does an integrated system has to be a closed system? NO. The only point of closing the system is to avoid people putting PhaseOne and other back in their hasselblads. This decision of closing the system has nothing to do with quality. There's a lot of people using open systems like Mamiya/h1-h2 with phaseone and this integrated super H3D is still not better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, one of the points of the H3D is to sell more H3D's. What's your point? An objective of business is to capture market-share.

Do you think, even for a moment, if Phase or Leaf had a camera they wouldn't look for proprietary solutions/benefits?

This is called differentiation. It's what sets one apart from one's competition. It's one way to grow, succeed, and profit as a business.

The Mamiya with a Phase back is not better than the H3D and H lenses?? Really?? Have you shot with both and compared the files?

[hubell]

Patrick,

I think you are reading selectively, most people do aplaud most of the things Hasselblad does however some things are not well received.

The motive behind closing their system has nothing to do with bringing solutions or benefits to photographers. The same solutions and benefits will be there when they would provide open specifications or developer kits.

Actually an open system would potentially provide more solutions and benefits.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It may appear to be true that the interests of photographers are best served by the manufacturers offering fully open systems, but IMO that is naive and short sighted. The reason is that unless Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya and Sinar can get sufficient market share to sell enough BACKS, not cameras, there is a serious risk that they will fold just like Contax, Pentax and Bronica. Without robust sales of digital backs, who was next? Mamiya? Hasselblad? Gee, who is left standing? Do you think Sinar would ever have invested in the Hy6 platform just to sell Hy6s? I am not at all intrigued by a future in which the only one selling backs is Phase One, and everyone is sticking them on used cameras that we buy off of eBay. How do those "options" look? I think we are much better off with a healthy Leaf selling a closed  AFI, a healthy Sinar selling a closed Hy6, a healthy Mamiya selling a closed solution with its inexpensive back and the ZD Camera, and a healthy Hasselblad selling the H3Ds. Loads of good options. You want a Hasselblad H2 for your Phase back, go for it. The only thing you cannot use on it is the 28mm lens and perhaps the forthcoming tilt/shift lens. You really need them? Get over it and buy an H3D. Life ain't perfect.
The most vocal bashers of Hasselblad appear to be Phase One users, which is really ironic because the best thing that could happen for photographers would be for Phase One to lose half of its market share to the other players. That would make the other players strong and encourage them to make the R&D investment to improve their backs and develop new lens offerings. So, if you really care about the future of the medium format digital back and camera community, support it by buying a back or digital camera from Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya or Sinar.

[psp]

It may appear to be true that the interests of photographers are best served by the manufacturers offering fully open systems, but IMO that is naive and short sighted. The reason is that unless Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya and Sinar can get sufficient market share to sell enough BACKS, not cameras, there is a serious risk that they will fold just like Contax, Pentax and Bronica. Without robust sales of digital backs, who was next? Mamiya? Hasselblad? Gee, who is left standing? Do you think Sinar would ever have invested in the Hy6 platform just to sell Hy6s? I am not at all intrigued by a future in which the only one selling backs is Phase One, and everyone is sticking them on used cameras that we buy off of eBay. How do those "options" look? I think we are much better off with a healthy Leaf selling a closed  AFI, a healthy Sinar selling a closed Hy6, a healthy Mamiya selling a closed solution with its inexpensive back and the ZD Camera, and a healthy Hasselblad selling the H3Ds. Loads of good options. You want a Hasselblad H2 for your Phase back, go for it. The only thing you cannot use on it is the 28mm lens and perhaps the forthcoming tilt/shift lens. You really need them? Get over it and buy an H3D. Life ain't perfect.
The most vocal bashers of Hasselblad appear to be Phase One users, which is really ironic because the best thing that could happen for photographers would be for Phase One to lose half of its market share to the other players. That would make the other players strong and encourage them to make the R&D investment to improve their backs and develop new lens offerings. So, if you really care about the future of the medium format digital back and camera community, support it by buying a back or digital camera from Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya or Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Alleluia brother!

Can I get an Amen!!

[mtomalty]

Actually an open system would potentially provide more solutions and benefits.

This may be true but I don't believe it offers any benefit to Hasselblad beyond a little
goodwill from current Phase/Leaf back owners.

I'm of the opinion that the desision to 'close' the system is primarily a business decision
and I don't have a problem with that. (of course,I'm a renter and not an owner of any
MFDB system so perhaps my opinion would be swayed if i were in the owner camp)

As mentioned earlier,the MFDB market is very small and I think Hasselblad is leveraging
their technology towards an endgame of securing a bigger slice of the small pie.

Their will be 'collateral damage' and some ruffled feathers to endure in the short to mid term
but down the road I don't doubt their decision will be sound one for Hasselblad.

When Canon introduced the EOS system some 15 years ago they were a distant second
to Nikon.  They chose to change the lens mount and,as a result,totally shut out all their
existing user base from migrating to the EOS with their lenses   Needless to say people
were massively pissed at the time but withing a couple of years,after the dust had settled,
it was pretty clear Canon had made the correct tactical move.

I think we can see a certail parrallel in the direction Hasselblad has chosen.

Mark

[godtfred]

I understand the decision of making an integrated system. But does an integrated system has to be a closed system? NO. The only point of closing the system is to avoid people putting PhaseOne and other back in their hasselblads. This decision of closing the system has nothing to do with quality. There's a lot of people using open systems like Mamiya/h1-h2 with phaseone and this integrated super H3D is still not better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Pure speculation from here onwards:

One could aruge that both form a business/revenue perspective and also a quality perspective, it would be impossible for Hasselblad to do what they now do without closing their system.

On the earnings bit, developing what Hasselblad has done (complete state of the art medium format system and software lens correction), would not be possible without getting "a cut" from digiback sales. The price of the system would possibly be too high and other digiback makers would have no incentive to share the costs unless mamiya/others where charging as well.

On the quality perspective, letting third party back makers (p1, leaf, etc.) loose on lenses that are not optically perfect and relying on software correction, may reflect poorly on blad if such third party did not do the job properly.

As I said all pure speculation, and I have no clue what the R&D costs and per unit costs are for a H-series parts, but HB may have to go the route they are taking to make it all "come together."

Lastly my H3D does wonders every day (also pure speculation on my part    )

-axel

[godtfred]

So, if you really care about the future of the medium format digital back and camera community, support it by buying a back or digital camera from Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya or Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

+1

[Dustbak]

Who's Patrick?

I disagree. An open system, as presently being described, can not provide as many potential benefits and in such a slick package as an integrated solution can. Again, think of a H1 with V lens, on a Phase/Leaf back, compared to an H3D.

Back to the original post then... if you need movements on medium format, there are presently solutions. View camera, Flex and Arc Hasselblad bodies... and I believe a t/s adaptor is available (I don't recall where, nor what bodies it fits). There may be other solutions... anyone?

Hasselblad is apparently also working on a solution, but nothing, as far as I know, has been announced. I would guess by Photokina 2008 there could possibly be something announced.

Fingers and toes crossed!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry Peter


I am thinking of the current H3. The only thing Hasselblad should do is provide the communication protocols and other necessary data so 3rd parties can develop backs for the H3 or develop software that have the lens corrections of the 28. They can (should) charge for such a developer kit as well. This approach would not compromise the H3D package whatsoever.

[psp]

Sorry Peter
I am thinking of the current H3. The only thing Hasselblad should do is provide the communication protocols and other necessary data so 3rd parties can develop backs for the H3 or develop software that have the lens corrections of the 28. They can (should) charge for such a developer kit as well. This approach would not compromise the H3D package whatsoever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can use other backs on an H camera. No problem.

I believe there have been some elequant posts on the advantages & reasons why HB should proceed as they are with cameras like the H3D....

[Dustbak]

It may appear to be true that the interests of photographers are best served by the manufacturers offering fully open systems, but IMO that is naive and short sighted. The reason is that unless Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya and Sinar can get sufficient market share to sell enough BACKS, not cameras, there is a serious risk that they will fold just like Contax, Pentax and Bronica. Without robust sales of digital backs, who was next? Mamiya? Hasselblad? Gee, who is left standing? Do you think Sinar would ever have invested in the Hy6 platform just to sell Hy6s? I am not at all intrigued by a future in which the only one selling backs is Phase One, and everyone is sticking them on used cameras that we buy off of eBay. How do those "options" look? I think we are much better off with a healthy Leaf selling a closed  AFI, a healthy Sinar selling a closed Hy6, a healthy Mamiya selling a closed solution with its inexpensive back and the ZD Camera, and a healthy Hasselblad selling the H3Ds. Loads of good options. You want a Hasselblad H2 for your Phase back, go for it. The only thing you cannot use on it is the 28mm lens and perhaps the forthcoming tilt/shift lens. You really need them? Get over it and buy an H3D. Life ain't perfect.
The most vocal bashers of Hasselblad appear to be Phase One users, which is really ironic because the best thing that could happen for photographers would be for Phase One to lose half of its market share to the other players. That would make the other players strong and encourage them to make the R&D investment to improve their backs and develop new lens offerings. So, if you really care about the future of the medium format digital back and camera community, support it by buying a back or digital camera from Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya or Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I own a CF39 and a Leaf A17 so I guess I helped a bit here. Before, I have used only Leaf. I have never owned a PhaseOne though I came very close to buying a P30+ or P45+. The offer I received from Phase was truly fantastic.

It would be nice to be able to use the CF39 on the H3 or to use the 28.

I am not so sure the MFDB market will get healthier the way you are describing it.

[ixpressraf]

Sorry Ray, don't agree. Why should hassie give away something they created, something wich is unike to them??  Canon doesn't sell their 5d sensor to nikon or Coca cola doesn't give their secret to pepsi. hasselblad back's offers us the utmost freedom there is in use( you yourself are using it on two complete different platforms, try that with a P1). This is all some sad people screaming about fried air.
As an other poster said already, if you want a 28mm, go for the H3d or  go get a mamiya.
Hasselblad owns the back and the camera and are entitled to chose the way to go  they like.
I myself us a CF39 and 384 back on 5 different platforms and are very happy i have chosen hasselblad over P1 or leaf.
Al this comotion is about one lens at the moment and probably some more in the future that nowbody forces one to use it. Put a 24mm on an Alpha or other wide camera and one is ready to go. Most people who are complaining over the matter are even not in the market to buy a 28mm or so, they even do not posses a newer back or H body.
The Hy6 platform is still thin air and will be surely closed to, one way or another... so why always nagging about hasselblad.
At this moment tyey produce the finest medium format system with the finest backs ( they are at least equal to those of the competition)available. So for those who chose P1 or other, sorry, bad luck. On my nikon I can not use the wonderfull canon 24/108 IS either, but do you read sad, wining storries about that?? i don't think so.

[samuel_js]

Yes, one of the points of the H3D is to sell more H3D's. What's your point? An objective of business is to capture market-share.

Do you think, even for a moment, if Phase or Leaf had a camera they wouldn't look for proprietary solutions/benefits?

This is called differentiation. It's what sets one apart from one's competition. It's one way to grow, succeed, and profit as a business.

The Mamiya with a Phase back is not better than the H3D and H lenses?? Really?? Have you shot with both and compared the files?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I switched from the H1 to Contax and now I'm on Mamiya with a P21. A lot of photographers were waiting for this Hasselblad 28mm. I'm my case, and with the crop factor of the p21, the 28 mm was very interesting. I liked the H1 very much but I could not buy the the lens I needed because I WAS LOCKED. Why, because my back wouldn't correct the lens? Please don't make me laught. It's like Hasselblad is telling professionals how to correct and proccess their images. Do you really think this lens can be only corrected with Flexcolor?
In other cases, like the people who bought the H2 just before this lens was presented? Don't you think they have a good reason to be in this anti-hasselblad position they are now?
I could understand that these lenses like the H system are not compatibles with the V system (well they actually are but not from Hasselblad's will) but why not H1 or H2 compatible? It's like Hasselblad is cleaning up the house. Canon is an integrated system but you can use any lens from any kind because the system is open for others, but the H3D is just compatible with Hasselblad gear because they won't even give the code for further development.

And about the quality, yes, mamiya with phaseone has better color, contrast (and bokeh) than hasselblad/imacon.

[michael]

What?!

The best combination of software and sensor technology combination is the H3D, whether you use wide angle or not, no? I would argue that an integrated solution is superior. Do you not think an H3D/with H lens is a superior camera to say an H1, with a V series lens with a non-Hasselblad back? I don't think so!

If you haven't already noticed, Hasselblad is in the camera and back business. They have the ability to therefore develop unique benefits with this integration. This deprives their customers of nothing. Instead it gives their customers the opportunity to take advantage of these benefits. All while still allowing anyone without a Hasselblad back to still use the Hasselblad camera and the majority of their lenses.

There seems to be a lot of displeasure that Hasselblad is pushing the envelope and providing real solutions & benefits to photographers. I still don't understand this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133824\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With all due respect, this is simply rubbish. The H series digital interface was originally designed by Hasselblad as a result of considerable colaboration with Phase One, and of course Fuji who does the actual manufacturing. Phase likely knows as much about H back interfacing as anyone, so to imply that the best sensor / software combo is unique to one company simply has no basis in fact. And of course both Hasselblad and Phase use the identical Kodak sensor, which makes that point moot.

Enough said, except, why does what you write sound like it was written by a Hasselblad copy writer?

Michael

[psp]

I switched from the H1 to Contax and now I'm on Mamiya with a P21.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, but that's hilarious!!

[Dustbak]

Sorry Ray, don't agree. Why should hassie give away something they created, something wich is unike to them??  Canon doesn't sell their 5d sensor to nikon or Coca cola doesn't give their secret to pepsi. hasselblad back's offer you the utmost freedom there is in use( you yourself are using it on two complete different platforms, try that with a P1). This is all some sad people screaming about fried air.
As an other poster said already, if you want a 28mm, go for the H3d or get a mamiya.
Hasselblad owns the back and the camera and are entitled to chose the way to go  they like.
I myself us a CF39 and 384 back on 5 different platforms and are very happy i have chosen hasselblad over P1 or leaf.
Al this comotion is about one lens at the moment and probably some more in the future that nowbody forces u to use. Put a 24mm on an Alpha or other wide camera and you are ready to go. Most people who are complaining over the matter are even not in the market to buy a 28mm or so, they even do not posses a newer back or H body.
The Hy6 platform is still thin air and will be surely closed to, one way or another... so why always nagging about hasselblad.
At this moment tyey produce the finest medium format system with the finest backs ( they are at least equal to those of the competition)available. So for those who chose P1 or other, sorry, bad luck. On my nikon I can not use the wonderfull canon 24/108 IS either, but do you read sad, wining storries about that?? i don't think so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is right Raf. I don't deny the Hasselblad has a right to make the business decision to close their system but I don't like it when it is being sold as technically necessary. Just come forward and call the animal by its right name.

Keeping technology proprietary is one solution. Licensing to 3rd parties is another thing which has also proven itself as a strategy that can reap many benefits. I never mentioned Hasselblad should give it away.

Can I use my CF39 on a H3? I don't think so.  To get myself another Hasselblad back or a Mamiya with 28mm that is odd. When the T&S comes out I hope I would be able to use it with the CF39, that is a lens that would have me interested (depending on the amount of tilt and shift and the flexibility of using both of them).


Anyway, every choice has its pros and cons.

[samuel_js]

Sorry, but that's hilarious!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I supose this is the kind of reply we (because there's a lot of people reading this you now?) can get from that kind of people who has nothing to say.
Hope your fingers aren't burning now because your shots are actually quite good man!

[ixpressraf]

So , there is one lens one is not able to use........ but we have the digiflex with 17/35mm wich gives perfect results.... so why the fusssssssss??
They sell it as they like. It is their propperty.
In the good old days, when there wass a huge difference between amateurs and professionals, everybody was mad about hassie because they were so expensive...... It is never OK for some people.
If one  really needs a 28mm corrected as with the hassieH3d, you simply buy the camera. Otherwise, one is  just wining about the fact that it's bussines isn't making enough monney to afford it...and one  should not be crying about that but acting to get more and better business. I have said this on more forums, when you have to ask for the price, you cannot afford it. Nowadays a lot of people are using Digibacks that actually have to hurt themselves (financially) to afford them. I have never heard a good working and money making photographer complain about such matter.

[psp]

With all due respect, this is simply rubbish. The H series digital interface was originally designed by Hasselblad as a result of considerable colaboration with Phase One, and of course Fuji who does the actual manufacturing. Phase likely knows as much about H back interfacing as anyone, so to imply that the best sensor / software combo is unique to one company simply has no basis in fact. And of course both Hasselblad and Phase use the identical Kodak sensor, which makes that point moot.

Enough said, except, why does what you write sound like it was written by a Hasselblad copy writer?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The H3D is arguably a better camera because it can do truly useful things that no other MF combination presently can. That is a fact. Your displeasure about not being able to have the benefits of certain H3D features speaks volumes about how much value it has.

Sensors are only part of the equation - come on Michael, surely you know as much. Files from a Phase back look different are ARE different than from a HB back. And I'm not getting into any discussions are to which is 'better'. They are different and some like one better than the other... for a variety of reasons.

My writing? I'll take that as a compliment......

[Bruce MacNeil]

I find this conversation very useful. Currently agonizing between H3D and H2/P45....